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China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

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Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#101
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central control is efficient, if you can get the right signals to the controller, and do it fast enough to have a tight feedback loop. Humans alone can do none of this at scale, but modern computing can do the "feedback" part easily. It's now the "signals" and "controller" parts that need to be figured out.

Central control is efficient? Despite every government that tried to control the economy utterly failed? You will need to provide some solid source to claim this kind of things. The problem lies with the concept, not with how fast the loop happens.

Evidence is in mathematics. Central control is always more efficient, because control overhead is constant everywhere but the central node, where it grows linearly, whereas in fully distributed system overhead grows exponentially at each node. That's why anywhere you have more than a dozen of humans or even computer systems talking together, a hierarchy develops. Note that even companies fiercely competing on the market are internally run top down. And "vertical integration", so hot a topic in business nowadays, is essentially a code word for "centrally planned economy".

Distributed systems have many interesting properties, like resilience / fault-tolerance and flexibility. But efficiency is not one of those properties, as evidenced by ridiculous amount of waste generated by the process of competition.

Note that I'm not arguing the soviets were right and the world should be run from Moscow. I do however believe that spectacular failure modes of centrally planned economies were caused mostly by slow, incomplete and unreliable feedback loops, and not because the idea is inherently bad (it works for businesses pretty well). Moreover, I hate this clueless criticizing I frequently see that "centralized = bad", "distributed = good". Truth is, "distributed = wasteful", "centralized = efficient", but sometimes it's worth to be inefficient to get the benefits distribution brings.

Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#102
post #71
post #37

Blocking the greatest encyclopedia that ever existed is the best example of what this kind of censorship is .

Since Wikipedia can be dumped onto a memory card I am not sure how effective the ban is supposed to be. It will constrain its spread but it is very hard to block all means of transmission of information.

You are right but no need for a memory card. Hundreds of millions of Chinese tourists go aboard[1] every year. Most of them travel within Asia so most HN readers don't feel it. Let alone VPN that most educated people can use if they really want to.

[1]https://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/nielsenglobal/cn/docs/Ou...

Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#103
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central control is efficient, if you can get the right signals to the controller, and do it fast enough to have a tight feedback loop. Humans alone can do none of this at scale, but modern computing can do the "feedback" part easily. It's now the "signals" and "controller" parts that need to be figured out.

Central control is efficient? Despite every government that tried to control the economy utterly failed? You will need to provide some solid source to claim this kind of things. The problem lies with the concept, not with how fast the loop happens.

Are corporations generally run as central control, or does it vary wildly?

Genuine question as my knowledge of org charts is roughly as simplistic as this cartoon: https://www.businessinsider.com/big-tech-org-charts-2011-6?o...

Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#104
post #93

I still remember that last year during my internship in Mainland China, clone git repository from GitHub and GitLab is a pain and my professor even have to use VPN too. China is basically hell for developers. I am afraid the new generations in China will no longer know about the real Internet. *sigh

Interesting comment. You make it sound like the real internet happens to be US-centric. Yes, many important projects are hosted on Gitlab and Github, but there are also other ways to share code. And these alternatives might not be that well known to us developers in the western world.

For a software developer (or student thereof), the useful parts of the internet are indeed quite US-centric.

Off the top of my head, losing access to any of the following platforms will hamper your professional development: Github, Stack Overflow, cloud services leaders (AWS, GCP, MS Azure, etc.), Coursera, Udacity, Youtube, Khan Academy, Google Search, Google groups, Slack. At best, you'll have to use a VPN, or maybe resort to a domestically developed and probably inferior alternative. At worst, no such alternative exists.

Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#105
post #103
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Central control is efficient? Despite every government that tried to control the economy utterly failed? You will need to provide some solid source to claim this kind of things. The problem lies with the concept, not with how fast the loop happens.

Are corporations generally run as central control, or does it vary wildly? Genuine question as my knowledge of org charts is roughly as simplistic as this cartoon: https://www.businessinsider.com/big-tech-org-charts-2011-6?o...

Generally, yes. If you are told what to do by your manager, who is told what to do by their managers, etc. this is central control. The alternative would be to have companies run as markets internally: that is, multiple teams doing the same stuff, competing against each other for internal resources. I've heard there were companies trying that out, but I've never heard of it actually working for anyone.

Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#106
post #86

Considering how politicized wikipedia ( like most of tech industry has gotten in recent years ), doesn't shock me. Jimmy Wales has pretty much come out and said wikipedia will no longer be user driven but ideology driven. Which is one of the reasons the other co-founder of wikipedia has criticized wales and wikipedia. Wikipedia is great for most generic topics, but for "sensitive" topics, it's pretty much propaganda.…

If you are making claims like this, you might want to source it. Like a Jimmy wales interview link, a wikipedia link to a "sensitive" topic that have been politized (that does not prove anything but still show that you've done some research).

Also generalization is bad. You might want to visit a skeptic association and follow a course about human cognitive bias (it is helpfull, but it won't "cure" you from them, just make you more self-aware).

Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#109
post #91
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see that articles about the same thing in different languages state different and incompatible numbers, then I always think that this is an obvious and easily solveable problem; separate the data from the language and reference it in the text. That way each language uses the same data. This shouldn't just be done with numbers, but with dates, and other easily convertible information. Yes, this will create conf…

The problem is that most data can never be verified. A source may never be fully accurate. A source could be a bunch of BS in the worst case. Even government data and media-based data frequently contradict each others. For recent events we have already seen large press groups spreading misinformation. So when do you know when they actually produce facts or produce biased BS? At the end of the day somebody makes a cal…

Wikipedia also has a notorious problem with "sources" that are written by the same person that's editing the article.

Re: China is blocking all language editions of Wikipedia

#110

Chinese government are hyper coward, it's going to be fun. ”You’re braver than you believe, stronger than you seem and smarter than you think.” – Winnie the Pooh

And it does have the guts to retaliate on tariffs... leverages, it doesn’t have too many leverages over its people
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