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Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

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Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#101
post #4

Wrote this comment a while ago for anyone wondering about this: Just installed it in a VM, changes that jumped out at me: • No Python (that you should develop against) installed out of the box. There's a /usr/libexec/platform-python (3.6) that yum (dnf) runs against, and then python2/python3 packages you can optionally install if you want to run python scripts. • Kernel 4.18 • No more ntpd, chrony only • /etc/sysconf…

So I hope I can answer some of these [disclaimer: I work for Red Hat]:

Python: This is about the module system. Modules let you install different versions of parts of the stack. For example, different Python, different Apache version, different QEMU. These will move much faster than base RHEL because they're now decoupled. You can install one version of each module from a choice of several versions available at any one time -- it's not parallel install (for that there is still Software Collections). The reason for not having parallel install is basically because people use containers or VMs so they don't really need it, and parallel install brings a lot of complexity.

For Python we tried to remove all the Python dependencies from the base image, didn't quite do it because of dnf (although that is in the works with at least the base dnf 3 being rewritten in C++). So we need a reliable System Python which isn't in a module (else dnf would break if you install modular Python 2.7). Basically don't use System Python unless you're writing base system utilities, instead "yum install python3" should pull in the right module.

Kernel: As usual the version number isn't that interesting, as a lot of work will be done through backports.

ntpd: Can't say I'm very happy about this myself :-(

Network scripts: It's NetworkManager all the way. Again, mixed feelings about this, but I can't say I loved network scripts either.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#102
post #4

Wrote this comment a while ago for anyone wondering about this: Just installed it in a VM, changes that jumped out at me: • No Python (that you should develop against) installed out of the box. There's a /usr/libexec/platform-python (3.6) that yum (dnf) runs against, and then python2/python3 packages you can optionally install if you want to run python scripts. • Kernel 4.18 • No more ntpd, chrony only • /etc/sysconf…

> • No more ntpd, chrony only

Not surprising. I've been preferring Chrony to ntpd on systems without systemd-timesyncd (like CentOS 6 and 7) for at least two years since I read this Core Infrastructure article about Chrony:

https://www.coreinfrastructure.org/blogs/securing-network-ti...

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#103
post #101
post #4

Wrote this comment a while ago for anyone wondering about this: Just installed it in a VM, changes that jumped out at me: • No Python (that you should develop against) installed out of the box. There's a /usr/libexec/platform-python (3.6) that yum (dnf) runs against, and then python2/python3 packages you can optionally install if you want to run python scripts. • Kernel 4.18 • No more ntpd, chrony only • /etc/sysconf…

So I hope I can answer some of these [disclaimer: I work for Red Hat]: Python: This is about the module system. Modules let you install different versions of parts of the stack. For example, different Python, different Apache version, different QEMU. These will move much faster than base RHEL because they're now decoupled. You can install one version of each module from a choice of several versions available at any o…

> For Python we tried to remove all the Python dependencies from the base image

Do you know why? I think it would be cool to not have any interpreted languages in the base image and FreeBSD manages to do that but I don't consider it that critical. For me it would be more interesting to not have Perl at all than Python...

I guess the situation with Python 2.7 on RHEL 7 was/is that painful?

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#104
post #6

With the whole IBM thing going on, I bet CentOS 8 is going to take longer than usual to be released.

I don't think so - I know the CentOS folk and they are working very hard on a release. There is no interference from IBM, partly because Red Hat hasn't been acquired yet, and partly because why would they kill a cash machine that's proven to work so well? Despite some nonsense you read online IBM are not stupid.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#105
post #4

Wrote this comment a while ago for anyone wondering about this: Just installed it in a VM, changes that jumped out at me: • No Python (that you should develop against) installed out of the box. There's a /usr/libexec/platform-python (3.6) that yum (dnf) runs against, and then python2/python3 packages you can optionally install if you want to run python scripts. • Kernel 4.18 • No more ntpd, chrony only • /etc/sysconf…

Anyone have any thoughts on why chrony vs openntpd?

Back when the ntpd security became a thing I evaluated chrony and openntpd as replacements and went with openntpd. It seemed to be simpler, used fewer system resources and had the openbsd teams reputation behind it.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#106
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I hope I can answer some of these [disclaimer: I work for Red Hat]: Python: This is about the module system. Modules let you install different versions of parts of the stack. For example, different Python, different Apache version, different QEMU. These will move much faster than base RHEL because they're now decoupled. You can install one version of each module from a choice of several versions available at any o…

> For Python we tried to remove all the Python dependencies from the base image Do you know why? I think it would be cool to not have any interpreted languages in the base image and FreeBSD manages to do that but I don't consider it that critical. For me it would be more interesting to not have Perl at all than Python... I guess the situation with Python 2.7 on RHEL 7 was/is that painful?

There's been a huge effort to get the base RHEL image size right down, so obviously getting rid of Python would help there. As for why we need to reduce the size of the base image, the answer is - as always - because containers.

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#108
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For Python we tried to remove all the Python dependencies from the base image Do you know why? I think it would be cool to not have any interpreted languages in the base image and FreeBSD manages to do that but I don't consider it that critical. For me it would be more interesting to not have Perl at all than Python... I guess the situation with Python 2.7 on RHEL 7 was/is that painful?

There's been a huge effort to get the base RHEL image size right down, so obviously getting rid of Python would help there. As for why we need to reduce the size of the base image, the answer is - as always - because containers.

I agree with this. My personal opinion is that advanced scripting languages, outside of shells, shouldn't be installed by default.

(Of course, this usually gets killed pretty quickly, as dependency hell quickly brings in advanced scripting languages.)

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#109
post #4

Wrote this comment a while ago for anyone wondering about this: Just installed it in a VM, changes that jumped out at me: • No Python (that you should develop against) installed out of the box. There's a /usr/libexec/platform-python (3.6) that yum (dnf) runs against, and then python2/python3 packages you can optionally install if you want to run python scripts. • Kernel 4.18 • No more ntpd, chrony only • /etc/sysconf…

Anyone have any thoughts on why chrony vs openntpd? Back when the ntpd security became a thing I evaluated chrony and openntpd as replacements and went with openntpd. It seemed to be simpler, used fewer system resources and had the openbsd teams reputation behind it.

For me, it comes down to the type of hosts I'm dealing with and how accurate I'd prefer their time to be. Years ago, I ran the reference implementation everywhere... but not anymore.

OpenNTPD's goals are to be "good enough" and provide "reasonable accuracy". On an OpenBSD laptop and several "play" VMs (running OpenBSD), it was indeed "good enough". For individual desktops or laptops and the random "standalone" machine, OpenNTPD is simpler and "just works" (I like that it can "verify" the time using HTTPS hosts of my choosing).

Nowadays, only my stratum 1 NTP servers still run the reference implementation. Everything else -- especially hosts which I may need to correlate events based on timestamps -- runs chrony.

A comparison of the three implementations [0] is available on chrony's website. From a quick glance, I don't see anything blatantly incorrect or "biased. The comparison was discussed here on HN ~18 months ago [1].

Basically, if accuracy to the second is good enough, OpenNTPD is fine. If you want more precision than that, go with chrony. It'll be MUCH more accurate and it really isn't any "harder" than OpenNTPD. You'll probably want to stick with ntpd if you're using reference clocks, although chrony supports a subset of them. If you're a nerd that wants the absolutely most accurate time you can get, Google "PTP 1588" as well.

[0]: https://chrony.tuxfamily.org/comparison.html

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15324386

Re: Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8 released

#110
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's "cockpit"; I regularly give it a try, looking for a better structured, more elegant webmin replacement; alas, cockpit has like 5% of webmin features.

But does it at least do that 5% well?

It's pretty, but not that functional. It tends to map naively underlying functions to buttons, without much thinking in actual UI or UX. It's a better, cleaner base than Webmin but it remains inferior in all and every aspect other than that.
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