Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says • Hacker News Board

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#101

Post by fsloth » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:00 PM UTC

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

Dude, none of the things what you suggest would make any impact. For me, personally - but those were kind of personal suggestions.

I haven't flown anywhere in three years, and certainly don't visit conferences.

"- Start working part time, and part of that part time remotely. Reduce your commute. "

Uh, what? I commute by bike and with the bus in the winter. I don't really see how stopping that would contribute.

"- If you have any investments shift them from fossil to green."

Uh, most of my investments are in index funds. I'm not going to change that, but I do hope my fund managers will.

"- Don't upgrade your phone. Seriously."

I don't upgrade. I buy replacements when the previous unit dies. I haven't seen any concrete benefits from upgrading from a top model in the past six years.

See, it gets pretty weird if you try to engage on a some sort of grass roots movement beyond a very, very specific goal. People have wildly different lives.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#102

Post by fcarraldo » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:00 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #86

MiroF wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bunch of bullshit. I'm not a vegan, even though I'm sure you'll label me as having an "anti-meat agenda." I have substantially cut down on my own meat consumption due to the environmental impact. > industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. Just because two things both cause emissions doesn't mean one isn't much, much worse t…

> What a bunch of bullshit. I'm not a vegan, even though I'm sure you'll label me as having an "anti-meat agenda." I have substantially cut down on my own meat consumption due to the environmental impact. Do you fly less? Drive less or carpool? Recycle? Live in a small home? Did you decide to not to have children? Wear only used clothing? Do you track your trash and food waste? Do you eat less? Shower less? Do you do…

You can continue to enjoy your meat, but still ensure your diet contains a responsible amount of it. A diet with proportionally less meat is both healthier and more environmentally sustainable.

I will never understand why Americans are personally affronted by the idea that they should eat less meat. What makes it such an insulting proposition?

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#103

Post by Udik » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:00 PM UTC

zdkl wrote: post #73

Udik wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sustainable farming needs to be local, it needs natural fertilizers and it needs grazing animals. I suspect that the "sustainable farming" you're describing, if applied at scale (= enough to feed 7 billion people) would require so much land as to completely devastate and replace every natural environment still left on earth. Little crops and pastures, as pleasing as they are to the eye, are not a natural environmen…

Nothing "natural" would sustain 7b+ people anyway, so what's your point against "sustainable" as a reasonable (and considerable) improvement?

> what's your point against "sustainable"

"Sustainable" is just a label, it doesn't in itself prove

a) that the methods it describes are sustainable;

b) that the conventional, industrial methods are not sustainable.

However, I agree that nothing natural can sustain a population of 7 billion. But we can try to concentrate the necessary unnatural food production on the smallest possible area, or use less technology and spread it over a much wider area.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#104

Post by paulcole » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

You’re missing the one that dwarfs the impact of all the rest:

Don’t have kids.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#105

Post by MiroF » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #86

MiroF wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bunch of bullshit. I'm not a vegan, even though I'm sure you'll label me as having an "anti-meat agenda." I have substantially cut down on my own meat consumption due to the environmental impact. > industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. Just because two things both cause emissions doesn't mean one isn't much, much worse t…

> What a bunch of bullshit. I'm not a vegan, even though I'm sure you'll label me as having an "anti-meat agenda." I have substantially cut down on my own meat consumption due to the environmental impact. Do you fly less? Drive less or carpool? Recycle? Live in a small home? Did you decide to not to have children? Wear only used clothing? Do you track your trash and food waste? Do you eat less? Shower less? Do you do…

Sorry, didn't realize I was talking to someone who believed making changes at the margin don't matter.

None of your arguments justify continued high meat consumption. I don't own a car, I recycle, I live in an apartment, don't have children, thrift, compost, ??eat less?? (no - I eat sustainably, and it more than makes up for the amount I eat).

> The militant "your opinion is bullshit" on individual issues

Thinking you're wrong isn't "militant" - it's just thinking that you're wrong. Learn to have a discussion.

People don't take climate change seriously because they're able to hide behind moral excuses for their own behavior, not because they're turned off because a vegan was mean to them once.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#106

Post by semi-extrinsic » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

_Microft wrote: post #83

bad_user wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

That was a pretty incoherent rant, so not sure where to start. Meat, especially beef production produces an order of magnitude more emissions than crops do. Rice is quite bad among the crops because of the methane produced but even that is far better than meat. [0] You can even cut 80% of CO_2 equiv. emissions of beef by replacing it with pork. It's THAT bad. Half of all people depend on crops produced with artifical…

One extremely low hanging fruit is to replace beef with pork or chicken wherever you're not really tasting and enjoying the beef. E.g. for tacos, where the flavor is dominated by spices anyway - at least for me it's equally good with minced pork.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#107

Post by perfunctory » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

tenpies wrote: post #59

bryanlarsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next U.S. federal election is an excellent opportunity to address climate change. Ensure that the Democratic primary chooses a leader with a good plan, and then ensure that he/she wins in 2020.

Except it's also not. As a continent, Asia is the largest polluter by far. What's worst, they're exporting those practices to Africa. Meanwhile, the Anglo-West is hyper-focused on the US because there's a president they don't like. This has been a blessing (now the average Anglo-Westerner at least pretends to care about the environment), but also a curse (they think the US is the only country that can save humanity).

> As a continent, Asia is the largest polluter by far.

Don't forget that a lot of that pollution is due to production for western consumption.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#108

Post by gdubs » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #56

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

A lot of what you point out is fair, but there are some points I disagree with.

First, absolutely right that the big problem with agriculture is its industrialization. It uses a ton of petrochemicals and relies on shipping things all over the world. And monocrops are terrible for the planet in all sorts of ways.

Second, grazing is actually good for soil, which in turn is quite effective for sequestering carbon. Potentially rivaling forests if we’re talking about replacing industrial monocrop acreage.

And I like what you say about the cost being more realistic if we switch to smaller, local farms. Beef would cost more, because it would reflect the price of growing it sustainably.

Where I disagree is the attitude against veganism. This idea that you can’t be vegan and healthy is ridiculous. If we’re talking anecdotes, then my wife and kids (who are vegan because of allergies) are a good example because they have regular annual checkups and are thriving on a vegan diet. I have a friend who lifts and went vegan, and got before and after bloodwork and is remarkably healthier now. Most of the research I’ve seen over the past several years suggests that not only is veganism a totally healthy way to live, it might actually be the healthier way to live.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#109

Post by MiroF » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

homonculus1 wrote: post #94

MiroF wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that local and "natural" is not sustainable. We need scale for a reason.

Scale is not sustainable either. What we REALLY need is population reduction.

Silly to advocate for population reduction when people in the developed world (esp. the US) emit multiple times as much as those in the developing world.

This is largely an overconsumption problem, not an overpopulation problem. Most of the people born today will emit less than you or I ever will.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#110

Post by hak8or » Mon, May 06, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #56

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

How on earth are you going to get farming local in NYC? Where? Thinking that making all roofs farms will make even a small dent is absurd, especially since it would be competing with solar.