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A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

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Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#101

Post by shawnz »

mieseratte wrote: post #95
shawnz wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious? What about the fact that American black and Hispanic families are disproportionately living in ghettos due to the barriers that have been purposefully imposed on them over the last century?

You do realize that there are black people who do not live in the ghetto and whites who do, right? Being poor is not a problem exclusive to any given race. At the same time, rural Appalachian whites have faced comparable socioeconomic exploitation. The historical mechanics of exploitation may differ, but the affect and outcome is the same.

Like I said previously: Nobody is claiming that white people can't suffer from poverty. But no white American was ever forced into poverty solely on the basis of their being white. White people can face poverty but being white does not cause poverty. Similarly just because black Americans are disproportionately affected by poverty doesn't mean that every black American is poor.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#102

Post by thfuran »

elliekelly wrote: post #88
yellowstuff wrote: post #84

Professional ethics is not the right approach to fixing the problem with user data. As the Equifax hack shows, the problem is not limited to the tech industry, and it's a problem of incentives at the corporate level, not the individual contributor level. We need corporate regulation. User data is an asset, because you use it to make money, and it is a liability, because it can be stolen and misused. Companies current…

> If user data had to be insured then there would be a financial incentive to only keep what's needed, and to treat it more carefully. Interesting thought, how would you imagine this would work in practice? Insurance against what? In the event of loss, who would make a payment to who? There are "cybersecurity" insurance policies available to companies now but they really only cover the cost of mailing notification le…

Presumably the insurance (or company who failed to get insurance) would pay the affected users.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#103

Post by cryoshon »

analognoise wrote: post #45
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people will think creating weapons for defense is an ethical thing to do. I prefer not to do that but I think the point is valid and there is no clear way to determine what’s ethical and what isn't.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

>What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve.

if the fight's imminent or already on, sure. but most of the time weapons are made long before there is the anticipation of a fight.

if nation A has a weapon that lets them fight without risking their soldiers as much as nation B, nation A will always be more willing to enter armed conflict, especially against the less-endowed nation B. so the act of making a better weapon lowers the threshold for using force.

that's one big reason why drones are exceptionally effective weapon systems. surveillance and airstrikes in enemy territory are prone to being shot down and the pilots killed or taken prisoner to be used as a bargaining chip for peace, but drones aren't. the political toll of a drone being shot down is practically zero in comparison, so drone wars can continue indefinitely without domestic outcry.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#104

Post by mieseratte »

shawnz wrote: post #101
mieseratte wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that there are black people who do not live in the ghetto and whites who do, right? Being poor is not a problem exclusive to any given race. At the same time, rural Appalachian whites have faced comparable socioeconomic exploitation. The historical mechanics of exploitation may differ, but the affect and outcome is the same.

Like I said previously: Nobody is claiming that white people can't suffer from poverty. But no white American was ever forced into poverty solely on the basis of their being white. White people can face poverty but being white does not cause poverty. Similarly just because black Americans are disproportionately affected by poverty doesn't mean that every black American is poor.

See, here is my problem. The parent post claimed that blacks, specifically, face classes of problems that no other group does when attempting university and that this is problematic because it may exclude non-traditional routes to learning "ethics" which in turn may exclude them from software jobs.

My point of contention is that, in this day and age, these problems apply equally and to single out a race is wrong. I'm not debating the historical jackasseries of why various groups have arrived in disadvantaged positions, my contention is solely on casting modern socioeconomic barriers along racial lines.

For whatever reason, you have seized on this while simultaneously removing any and all context and are attempting to paint me as claiming blacks haven't suffered / whites have based on race relations. This was never even a part of the conversation but you keep placing "points" in my mouth that I never made and then debating them. You're derailing the conversation.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#105

Post by close04 »

minkzilla wrote: post #93
close04 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A code of ethics is backed by law at least for the most part (sometimes ethical and legal principles might even clash). And here is the biggest difference. For doctors or lawyers unethical behavior leads to losing the license to practice. There's no such thing for coding.

Do you believe there should be?

In principle (because the technicalities are way too complex to address here and now) there's no reason specific fields in programming couldn't require a license, like a clearance needed to work with sensitive data.

Coding is more and more used to build the backbone of future society. It's about time we recognize the criticality of the whole industry (not just the coders themselves). Having no ethics code for this is not very different from accepting when soldiers invoke the "superior orders" defense.

It may very well turn out that it simply can't be applied to this field but to get there you have to at least consider it first.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#106

Post by Bartweiss »

mindcrash wrote: post #83

Not needed, we hackers - more or less - already have one for about 35 years: 1) Access to computers - and anything which might teach you something about the way the world really works - should be unlimited and total. Always yield to the Hands-On Imperative! 2) All information should be free. 3) Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. 4) Hackers should be judged by their acting, not bogus criteria such as degre…

The medical code of ethics dates back, at least in sentiment, to Hippocrates. Legal codes of ethics draw on Daniel Webster, Thomas More, and so on back to Rome. If programming is going adopt a more heavyweight code of ethics, I don't want it to be in response to the news stories of the day - I'd much rather see us start with the admirable history of the field.

The whole image of amoral, selfish programming implies that we either lost sight of or failed to publicize the strong ethical stances which have been around for decades.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#108

Post by circlefavshape »

elliekelly wrote: post #99
klagermkii wrote: post #76

I don't think you can compare the relationship of a company to customers, to that of a one-to-one relationship of a doctor or a lawyer. The company acts as a third party with very different (and often directly conflicting with the end user) aims that creates a much harder ethical situation for a developer to navigate and creates confusion as to who has the responsibility to sound the alarm. I think of something like…

> The company acts as a third party with very different (and often directly conflicting with the end user) aims that creates a much harder ethical situation for a developer to navigate and creates confusion as to who has the responsibility to sound the alarm. This is very similar to structure I operated under as a corporate attorney at a bank but also as the Chief Information Security Officer. I owed a duty to the ba…

> I'll be the first to admit that much of my zealous advocacy was indeed a net-negative for society

Curious to find out more about this, and how you felt about it while you were doing it, if you're willing to talk about it.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#109

Post by 52-6F-62 »

mindcrash wrote: post #83

Not needed, we hackers - more or less - already have one for about 35 years: 1) Access to computers - and anything which might teach you something about the way the world really works - should be unlimited and total. Always yield to the Hands-On Imperative! 2) All information should be free. 3) Mistrust authority - promote decentralization. 4) Hackers should be judged by their acting, not bogus criteria such as degre…

I really enjoyed that book in particular, and generally appreciate that code, but I've always questioned the definition of information in this context.

There must be a line somewhere between authority and expertise—also information and intellectual property.

It's more that I don't think I understand, even though I've probably read [most of] the same books.

Where does a journalistic piece of writing fall? Certainly, and often, the results of an investigative piece of writing would be considered quite valuable information. Does that mean it should be free? If so, how should that work be funded in the future. Most efforts outside of selling the final product have failed disastrously. Most people want it for free—free as in free like rainfall. I suppose some software may fall under a similar question.

On authority—who gets to speak to a subject? Decentralizing "facts" has put us in the position where empirical evidence is actively opposed on baseless grounds, with decentralizing the ability to compound nonsensical ramblings and dress them up as if they are of equal value as something hypothesized, experimented on, iterated, and proven within the confines of our scientific process.

Those are two more practical and immediate questions, but a sibling comment also raised a salient point.

I like a lot of the points they make, but also think some of them are naive as they came before the normalizing of internet and computers.

Curious to hear from others on this one.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#110

Post by Glyptodon »

The ACM tried to revise its code of ethics not long ago. The process a bit rough because there are very very different interests and perspectives within the organization, not to mention difference in norms between nations (like China).

They did try, though. They went just far enough that it's almost possible to suggest that one couldn't adhere to the current code and still work for Google, Facebook, or China in any engineering capacity. But I still don't really expect them to start penalizing members, as the ACM seems to see itself a lot more as an academic/research group than professional org.

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