Is everything an MLM • Hacker News Board

Re: Is everything an MLM

#101

Post by YjSe2GMQ » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #95

seibelj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…

Since money represent human work and earth ressources, both finite, yes, when you make money, somebody becomes poorer. Because the total amount of human work and resources and the actual leverage they got on the world becomes diluted.

It may be hard to believe but labor productivity has been increasing!

For example (and bear with me, because this is incredibly hard to believe) it is more efficient in terms of amount of food collected per hour to use a farming machine over a field of wheat than it is to chase a guanaco or some other rabbit with a bow.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#102

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #95

seibelj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…

Since money represent human work and earth ressources, both finite, yes, when you make money, somebody becomes poorer. Because the total amount of human work and resources and the actual leverage they got on the world becomes diluted.

Suppose I'm a plumber and you're an electrician. You need your pipes fixed, so you pay me $100. I need my wires fixed, so I pay you $100. At the end we both have the same amount of money we started with, but now your pipes are fixed and my wires are fixed.

You come out ahead as long as the value of the thing you paid for is worth more to you than what you paid for it. And if it isn't then why did you pay that much for it, instead of just not doing it?

Re: Is everything an MLM

#103

Post by cheerlessbog » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

foxhop wrote: post #71

My goal is to extract as much money as I can out of the tech industry, without compromising on my values. While I'm doing that I'm trying to build up a small food forest which will help me avoid the pyramid altogether. My only hope for humanity is for at least 30% of the population to do the same, but I'm not holding my breath.

What is a food forest?

Re: Is everything an MLM

#104

Post by seibelj » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

cheerlessbog wrote: post #98

seibelj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are coming from the socialist angle, which is a loaded word that will probably derail the conversation, but essentially you see the free market and competition as a waste of resources that harms society. The base argument is that we don’t need 80 brands of deodorant, and the fact we have so many is a colossal waste of resources, duplication, and moral failure of society. Whereas I see 80 brands of deodorant and t…

> essentially you see the free market and competition as a waste of resources that harms society. GP made no general statement of this sort. Misrepresenting other perspectives is boring.

> Not when you construct factories, warehouses, office skyscrapers and shopping areas where those same goods will be manufactured, stored, marketed and sold, by thousands of competing companies. That competition leads to a lot of wasted resources in exchange for product improvements of a questionable value, like, the availability of fridges in a variety of colours. [...] Everything is deeply interconnected, and we really need to reevaluate our goals and interests as a society.

Parent poster said this plainly, I'm not sure how you could read it another way.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#105

Post by skybrian » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

astazangasta wrote: post #79

skybrian wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's entirely artificial. At the individual or company level, nobody knows or cares about their percentage of GDP.

The economy definitely behaves in ways that has to do with percent of GDP. Capital allocation is the most obvious factor. Individuals feel the weight of finance on the economy regardless of whether they know it or care.

It's just not capturing anything interesting about how growth in one industry should affect other people's decisions. Consider a factory town in the Midwest. The factory closing is not good for other businesses! Their loss is not a gain for you. Or if some bank decides to put its headquarters there, that is very good for the community.

Generally speaking, being in a rich or growing area is a good location for business because your customers spend more. Similarly, a thriving economy is good for business, not bad.

You aren't going to convince people that good things are actually bad by measuring things in percentages. You're just measuring it wrong.

On the other hand, housing when there's no way to build more units is an example of something that can actually be zero sum. If you move in, that means one less place to live for anyone else.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#106

Post by seibelj » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

cheerlessbog wrote: post #97

seibelj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

Often the choices made by "the individual" don't account for externalities that aren't built into the price. Viz landfills, climate change, effect on those with less economic resources.

Are you suggesting it's better to ban individual choice because of the existence of landfills and climate change? The market could effectively and efficiently price those into products, if society would pass a law.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#107

Post by cortic » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

jblow wrote: post #87

coliveira wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It’s not on someone else to tell me what I should and should not want. Let me give you the news: companies have like..., forever, being in the business of telling others what they should want or not. This is called advertising. This is essentially what every company in the so called new economy, large or small, does to make money. In a modern capitalist economy, nobody cares about the needs of others. The goal is…

Try running a company this way and we’ll see how long it lasts.

Doing okay so far -Bill Gates

Re: Is everything an MLM

#108

Post by rndmize » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #83

UweSchmidt wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy that you describe, is the simplified econ 101 version. The market fixes everything, and the invisible hand steers everything to optimality. The human being you describe in your last paragraph is from the same economics textbook: A perfectly rational human being making rational decisions 24/7. Both are simplified models that help doing some undergrad economics...but are absolutely insufficient to explain t…

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

Actually, fairly often, we do. I don't think we need to look any further than the paranoia around vaccinations to see that individuals often don't know what's good for themselves and others. There's any number of businesses that rely on their targets having incomplete information (or downright misinformation) that should probably be regulated out of existence (and many in fact have been).

Re: Is everything an MLM

#109

Post by rogerkirkness » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

bluetomcat wrote: post #53

Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…

Certainly someone who thinks the economy is zero sum is a terrible candidate for "more efficient reorganization of society."

Re: Is everything an MLM

#110

Post by cheerlessbog » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #106

cheerlessbog wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often the choices made by "the individual" don't account for externalities that aren't built into the price. Viz landfills, climate change, effect on those with less economic resources.

Are you suggesting it's better to ban individual choice because of the existence of landfills and climate change? The market could effectively and efficiently price those into products, if society would pass a law.

No. Did I say that? I like living in a predominantly capitalist society. I would like us to pay more attention to the consequences of consumption. One way to do that is to build it into prices (such as a carbon tax, or upstreaming disposal cost) or by regulation. Building cost into price is actually a very capitalist and arguably libertarian approach as it enables the market to reallocate resources to minimize what would otherwise be an externality.