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Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

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Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#101

Post by koonsolo »

Can someone explain to me how you can be productive for 12 hours on a single day?

When I do concentrated programming work, I can maybe do 4 hours, at best 6 hours. It seems I can stretch it when doing more mundane work when I know what needs to be done. But this time is seriously reduced when I have to think about architecture or more complex stuff.

The literature also point into this direction, where writers and serious thinkers do these kind of few hours (also see Cal Newport on deep work).

I know John Carmack said you can be more productive when you can do more easy tasks to fill up the day, but it ends somewhere.

I have a master degree in computer science, and during the exams, my head was full at 20:00. Nothing could get in after that. I know people who could study until 3 in the morning. But you know what, after questioning them, they didn't do shit in the morning.

At work, I always had great reviews and my employers loved me (I'm almost 40 now). I always felt I was slacking off because I worked too little. But then I understood, if I work so little and get great reviews, what are those other guys doing?

So 12 hours a day? You are just lying to yourself. Those people are slacking off like crazy, and probably can't get anything done during the day. And at the end of the day, they are angry at themselves that they didn't do shit and wasted most of those 12 hours slacking off.

But I am sincerely asking to prove me wrong. Is it possible to work 12 productive hours a day? I was always searching for this how some people claim to be able to pull this off. But after investigation, they never really were able to do this.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#102

Post by celticninja »

afarrell wrote: post #77
echelon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

996 is fine if you're a founder of a company. It's not okay for ill-compensated workers that will never become billionaires. We don't have much time on this planet. Why should he expect others to be droning slaves for him? People should enjoy what little life they have, not spend most of their time as cogs in a machine.

>996 is fine if you’re a founder Is it? You have production access to the company’s most important relationships. If you’re falling asleep in meetings or just unable to exercise emotional intelligence, that seems pretty bad for the company. EDIT: falling asleep in meetings is bad, not good.

Only because it is your choice to undertake the extra working time, not because it is expected.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#103

Post by DoreenMichele »

stuffedBelly wrote: post #10

Jack Ma's comment on this matter is full of logical fallacy. Forcing employees to stick to the 996 schedule with no overtime pay is not equivalent to someone finding their own passion and work restless towards their own goal. He somehow mixed up these two completely different things while avoided talking about the lack of overtime pay or even basic respect for employees in many corporations. Labeling people who deman…

and nurses work long hours with lower pay

The Longer The Shifts For Hospital Nurses, The Higher The Levels Of Burnout And Patient Dissatisfaction

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3608421

Nurses seek to reduce long hours and fatigue

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2015/02/01/nurse-...

January 31, 2012 — State laws against mandatory overtime hours for nurses are effective, researchers reported in an article published online August 29, 2011, in Nursing Outlook.

"Nurses routinely work long shifts, often as long as 12 hours straight," said Carol Brewer, PhD, RN, FAAN, a professor at the School of Nursing, University at Buffalo, New York, in a news release. "These laws were intended to prevent hospitals from piling mandatory overtime on top of such shifts, a practice that research shows can increase the likelihood of mistakes."

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/757834

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#104

Post by thetechlead »

stuffedBelly wrote: post #83
thetechlead wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worked at Alibaba. Not trying to defend the company, just offering my observation. They do work much longer hour as compared to most American companies (like Google, I worked at too), even longer than the average Chinese ones. However, 9-to-9 doesn't mean people work 12 hour straight and nobody forcing anyone to stay at work until 9. Chinese work schedule includes 30 minutes to 1 hour extra napping time at noon, and…

The keyword is "voluntary". Alibaba doesn't have this problem but many other companies do. The fact anti-996 has gained tons of attention makes me doubt it's just an immature movement started by a couple of crybabies.

Definitely not immature. People have all the right to do so, and Chinese laws protect labor rights. And I do agree that the reason you are working overtime and whether it's voluntary make a big difference.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#105

Post by brazzy »

celticninja wrote: post #102
afarrell wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>996 is fine if you’re a founder Is it? You have production access to the company’s most important relationships. If you’re falling asleep in meetings or just unable to exercise emotional intelligence, that seems pretty bad for the company. EDIT: falling asleep in meetings is bad, not good.

Only because it is your choice to undertake the extra working time, not because it is expected.

That doesn't change how much it messes up your performance and judgement.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#106

Post by isolli »

koonsolo wrote: post #101

Can someone explain to me how you can be productive for 12 hours on a single day? When I do concentrated programming work, I can maybe do 4 hours, at best 6 hours. It seems I can stretch it when doing more mundane work when I know what needs to be done. But this time is seriously reduced when I have to think about architecture or more complex stuff. The literature also point into this direction, where writers and ser…

I entirely agree with you, with one caveat: I have met one, maybe two persons in my life who were able to work and be intellectually productive 12 hours a day on a prolonged basis, but they are the absolute exception. Building an entire company on the assumption that they are the norm is insane.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#107

Post by sn41 »

I sometimes think that there's only ever been one economic model - slavery. Various excuses are periodically found to justify it, like aristocracy, caste system, slavery, Gulag, meritocracy, passion, etc. - ultimately, as a society, we do not want fair wages to be given to workers, so that we can consume more, cheaper goods, and glorify a few billionaires as super(wo)men.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#108

Post by weego »

afarrell wrote: post #77
echelon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

996 is fine if you're a founder of a company. It's not okay for ill-compensated workers that will never become billionaires. We don't have much time on this planet. Why should he expect others to be droning slaves for him? People should enjoy what little life they have, not spend most of their time as cogs in a machine.

>996 is fine if you’re a founder Is it? You have production access to the company’s most important relationships. If you’re falling asleep in meetings or just unable to exercise emotional intelligence, that seems pretty bad for the company. EDIT: falling asleep in meetings is bad, not good.

I think it's worth defining what "fine" is in this context.

It's fine in as much as it's your gig, it's on you to decide what is right or not. If you believe that working extreme hours at the cost of your own wellbeing and rational performance will end up being a benefit to you in the long run then it's "fine" for you to make that choice and you either reap the benefits of suffer the consequences and hopefully learn from it.

It's not fine to project your notion of drive and passion onto people who are employees and expect them to match your personal standards when the potential rewards are magnitudes different.

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#109

Post by sgt101 »

lazyjones wrote: post #100
sgt101 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an investor, but if I were an investor I would want my stewards of capital to be awake and aware and full on. Airline pilots and professional drivers (truckers) have mandated rest, for a reason.

I'm an investor and former VC-backed founder and I'd like my stewards of capital, who are typically the best work force in the early days of startups, to work more than 40 hours. I'm sure that they do in the overwhelming majority of successful startups.

Truckers are mandated (in the USA) to do 60 hours in 7 days, which is more than 40 hours. If your founder works 96 hours a week for 6mths what do you think their state of mind will be?

I worked 96 hours a week for eight weeks finishing off my dissertation. I finished it, but basically went crazy - I needed some time off, which was good because I crossed the line. Startups used to be like that I suppose, but now it takes far longer to cross the line to an exit than it used to, are you making the best use of the human capital you are deploying?

Re: Jack Ma Again Endorses Extreme Overtime as Furor Rages On

#110

Post by benj111 »

rococode wrote: post #53
stuffedBelly wrote: post #10

Jack Ma's comment on this matter is full of logical fallacy. Forcing employees to stick to the 996 schedule with no overtime pay is not equivalent to someone finding their own passion and work restless towards their own goal. He somehow mixed up these two completely different things while avoided talking about the lack of overtime pay or even basic respect for employees in many corporations. Labeling people who deman…

> Labeling people who demand reasonable work-life balance as "slackers" or lazy is utterly disgusting. Worth clarifying that the "slackers" comment came from JD.com's founder Richard Liu, not Jack Ma. edit: removed comments on whether he endorses it or not since it seems like there are contradicting statements from him. My current impression is that he disagrees with forced overtime but wants his employees to work si…

"My current impression is that he disagrees with forced overtime but wants his employees to work similar hours voluntarily"

If your boss says they want you to work overtime 'voluntarily', what do you do? Doesn't sound very voluntary, and middle managers actually doing the enforcement aren't going to treat it like that, especially when they get targets.

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