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Java 12

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Re: Java 12

#101

Post by ilovecaching »

yazr wrote: post #70
ellard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Isn't Java still one of the default languages if you are choosing a "safe" language to build and maintain a large piece of software? Considering how long it's been around and how many libraries exist for it now, i've generally viewed it as a language that's: - fast enough for most things without a lot of pitfalls/gotchas - easy enough to read for most developers - easy enough for most developers to…

> Isn't Java still one of the default languages ? Yes. There is no need to engage the GP - let him rant about Go and JS. Java is still huge, for both legacy and new projects. For context - I started as a C/Kernel dev. I also spent 2 years with Java on mission critical backend code. Both have their uses.

> For context - I started as a C/Kernel dev.

So you have a very limited view on what sane development looks like. I assume this is just name dropping.

> I also spent 2 years with Java on mission critical backend code.

I feel bad for the people that will have to keep that code running. Because my point is that there are now better choices.

Re: Java 12

#102

Post by jahrule »

ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

I think you meant Spring, not Swing, when talking about cloud frameworks.

And from this it seems to me you are somehow biased against the java ecosystem without hands-on experience to base your opinions on.

Re: Java 12

#103

Post by iainmerrick »

ilovecaching wrote: post #78
coldtea wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems to be a popular notion that adding constructs common in FP is somehow a modernization of C++ or Java. FP isn't a set of features, it's a style of programming. And historically, nobody cared for that style of programming in its pure form (where "nobody" is in the casual sense: a few FP-lovers, but not the 95% of working programmers). From 1960 to today it remains niche in its pure form, even the most popula…

Pedantically, you can't just redefine a term to suit your need calling something "pure" or "unpure". There are many other styles of programming that are data oriented and are a better definition for Rust and some circles of Javascript than functional, but ergonomics of composition and partial application leads to something far short of FP. > We found out, on the other hand, that people care for mixing that style of p…

Pedantically, you can't just redefine a term to suit your need calling something "pure" or "unpure".

No, I think they are using those terms correctly. In FP, “pure” means absolutely no side-effects. So if you add an FP-style library to an existing imperative language, that’s “impure”.

Re: Java 12

#104

Post by [deleted] »

yazr wrote: post #70
ellard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Isn't Java still one of the default languages if you are choosing a "safe" language to build and maintain a large piece of software? Considering how long it's been around and how many libraries exist for it now, i've generally viewed it as a language that's: - fast enough for most things without a lot of pitfalls/gotchas - easy enough to read for most developers - easy enough for most developers to…

> Isn't Java still one of the default languages ? Yes. There is no need to engage the GP - let him rant about Go and JS. Java is still huge, for both legacy and new projects. For context - I started as a C/Kernel dev. I also spent 2 years with Java on mission critical backend code. Both have their uses.

[deleted]

Re: Java 12

#105

Post by zmmmmm »

ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

It's fascinating reading a post like this because I feel exactly the same from the opposite perspective.

I feel bad for people trying to write in other languages and manually re-inventing dozens of features the JVM ecosystem just gives you for free. In many ways, the whole container-push has been essentially people trying to achieve what the JVM already gave you (isolation, cross platform, etc etc). I still don't see anything equivalent that doesn't impose huge burdens of complexity (which java does have but it's a known quantity with two decades of maturity).

Re: Java 12

#106

Post by ilovecaching »

jm4 wrote: post #94
ilovecaching wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java on the web is a reference to applets running in the browser. Yes, Oracle, the company that sues people for breathing the same air owning Java is an issue. Maybe I am uninformed, but you haven't made a good case that there's any truth to that.

Do you know anything about Java? I'm not trying to be insulting. Java has its problems, but your points are so far off the mark. Applets haven't been a thing for 20 years and I'm not sure they were a thing then either. Do you know people make web apps in Java and there's a ton of quality open source libraries out there?

I developed Java (Swing, Spring, JavaFX), managed tomcat deployments, good stuff.

I think my question is, do most Java developers really know what goes outside of their window? Every language has a good story for web apps these days. The web is ubiquitous. You can write in Phoenix, Cowboy, Rails, Sinatra, Express, "net/http", Django, Laravel, Flask, Rocket... Java is literally middle of the pack at best. So that's not a compelling reason to use Java. So then we have to look at the rest of Java. Is there anything else in there that would make it better for web dev than a simple Go/Ruby/Python/Javascript/Rust/Elixir app? No? Ok, then let's not use Java. Java excels at being mediocre at everything, but the best at nothing.

Re: Java 12

#107

Post by [deleted] »

wongarsu wrote: post #60
ellard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Isn't Java still one of the default languages if you are choosing a "safe" language to build and maintain a large piece of software? Considering how long it's been around and how many libraries exist for it now, i've generally viewed it as a language that's: - fast enough for most things without a lot of pitfalls/gotchas - easy enough to read for most developers - easy enough for most developers to…

All of those points are also true for C#, which imho fixes a lot of Java's problems and is a much nicer language. With .Net Core maturing you even get the "runs everywhere" factor (at least everywhere you care about, i.e. Win+Linux+Mac), and Microsoft is a much better vendor than Oracle.

[deleted]

Re: Java 12

#108

Post by mehrdadn »

chrisseaton wrote: post #80
mehrdadn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I mean that's effectively a deployment error. You're not supposed to run your application without enough head-room. You can degrade almost any GC by restricting the head-room. You're reading from the 'failure modes' section there. ...what is this nonsense? User has 5GB of RAM left and program reads 3GB. The program finishes with it and loads the next 3GB, but triggers a GC pause. He comes to you and tells you the G…

Can you tone down your comments a bit, please? There's no need to be so aggressive. It's not nonsense, I'm not lying about anything, and I'm not running about crying. > Shenandoah implicitly relies on collecting faster than application allocates That's what the documentation tells you that you need in order to deploy Shenandoah. If you can't meet that then you don't get the claimed performance characteristics. If you…

It is nonsense though. I'm frustrated to see the same lie repeated over and over again. When nobody buys the lie a new GC comes out that everyone claims this time is really, truly going to do the impossible. With a giant invisible "implicit" asterisk that basically says "except when it doesn't, then it's your fault". It's been happening for... over a decade now? I don't even remember.

> Shenandoah implicitly relies on collecting faster than application allocates

What precisely does this even mean? How is the programmer or user supposed to provision for this? By blocking on every allocation until enough time has passed since the previous one... which merely shifts the blame for the pause from the GC onto the application? And so if there are A allocations/second and D deallocations/second and we have A < D then suddenly there's a guarantee of constant-time pauses? I don't buy that either. I'm pretty confident I could construct a counterexample if I spend some time to create a nontrivial object graph. Do you believe it?

Re: Java 12

#109

Post by ilovecaching »

zmmmmm wrote: post #105
ilovecaching wrote: post #22

I understand why Java has to keep on chugging along, but I feel bad for the people that have to be a part of it. It's like watching people keep coal trains going while people are moving to cars. Why? Besides being owned by Oracle, which is enough of a reason to never use Java ever again, it's also lost the niches that brought it into existence. Java no longer runs everywhere. Java on the web is dead, and you can now…

It's fascinating reading a post like this because I feel exactly the same from the opposite perspective. I feel bad for people trying to write in other languages and manually re-inventing dozens of features the JVM ecosystem just gives you for free. In many ways, the whole container-push has been essentially people trying to achieve what the JVM already gave you (isolation, cross platform, etc etc). I still don't see…

That's how much people hated writing Java. Also, Erlang would like to have a word with you.

Re: Java 12

#110

Post by pjmlp »

wongarsu wrote: post #60
ellard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Isn't Java still one of the default languages if you are choosing a "safe" language to build and maintain a large piece of software? Considering how long it's been around and how many libraries exist for it now, i've generally viewed it as a language that's: - fast enough for most things without a lot of pitfalls/gotchas - easy enough to read for most developers - easy enough for most developers to…

All of those points are also true for C#, which imho fixes a lot of Java's problems and is a much nicer language. With .Net Core maturing you even get the "runs everywhere" factor (at least everywhere you care about, i.e. Win+Linux+Mac), and Microsoft is a much better vendor than Oracle.

As someone that works with both stacks since their inception, there are tons of platforms with Java compilers, where .NET Core isn't even a thing today, and there are tons of .NET libraries that will never leave .NET Framework.

So it isn't like just exchanging one for the other like that.

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