The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College • Hacker News Board

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#101

Post by intopieces » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

An entire article about the future of education and not a single paragraph about automation. How are trade schools preparing students to reinvent themselves every 10 years or less? How is vocational education setting the expectation that those students will have not one career for the rest of their lives, but many?

This is not to say that liberal arts colleges are much better; but, at least with 4 year degrees, the expectation that you will “get a job in what you studied” is less pronounced (that is, after all, the original meaning of “liberal” in “Liberal Arts”).

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#102

Post by ngngngng » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #78

ngngngng wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without h…

A single anecdotal example is not convincing. in general, the data shows collage dropouts do worse on a wide range of metrics such as employment and wages than grads. Even if you can learn the material, having the diploma means more job opportunities.

I wasn't attempting to, nor am I comfortable with suggesting that others can find my same level of success without a college degree. I'm in the 98th percentile of earners for my age. And that's just my salary in the mid level software engineering job. Obviously there's some luck or privilege or whatever in there.

I was mostly arguing against the idea that college is more beneficial than other options for gaining an "expansive world view". I really don't find it necessary at all in the 21st century if that's your goal.

If it's respected in your career path, and you have the means to attend, by all means get a degree.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#103

Post by EpicEng » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #36

simonsarris wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People going into college don't even get an expansive view of how debt works, and that's what they end college with the most of. I don't think that view is missing, I think people do not value college like they claim they do if that premise (getting an expansive view of human knowledge) is the goal. Of course that's a great goal, but its also something that should have been happening all the way to adulthood (16-18 y…

> We cannot even make high school graduation in the USA contingent on being able to read. In what states?

My wife is a teacher. You'd be surprised. Kids are pushed along to the next grade for valid and silly reasons alike. Sometimes it's a function of an unstable home life, but no one likes to admit that some people just aren't that bright. She spends countless hours tutoring her underperforming students and some... just don't get it.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#104

Post by EpicEng » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

claudiulodro wrote: post #64

I blame the recession more than any stigma. There is a stigma around working at McDonalds, not skilled trades. I and many other millenials definitely applied for trade apprenticeships back when we got out of high school. In my case after doing very well on the electrician apprentice entrance exams I was still 200th in line because of the recession, and they weren't really onboarding many new apprentices. I ended up g…

> I blame the recession more than any stigma. There is a stigma around working at McDonalds, not skilled trades.

For at least thirty years we have been telling our children that, in order to be successful, they need to go to college. We remind them of this constantly; college is the goal. That message implies that anything else is less than. There is definitely a stigma regarding trade skills, but not necessarily one we explicitly put forward.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#105

Post by ams6110 » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

USNetizen wrote: post #51

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I tend to agree with the commentators on your post. I went the college route, but technically had a "trade school" experience first via the military - it gave me the befit of trying out a career field before I committed to a degree. I have family members who just went to trade school and comfortably clear 6 figures a year - they never even had a desire for college. We need to stop stigmatizing trade schools and start…

"An expansive view of human knowledge" is not what the modern undergraduate degree provides anyway. For a huge number of undergrads, college is high school part 2, just something they need to get through to get a good job. They are not there to expand their minds, and to the extent it happens, it's a side-effect and pretty minimal for most.

I say that as someone with an undergrad degree from a major state university, and even 30 years ago when I was there it was like that. I don't think my mind was opened to anything really new at university. I learned about what I was interested in (computer science) but I had that interest going in. I did not discover anything new or mind-expanding outside of that.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#106

Post by tracker1 » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #93

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back then, high school graduation had an exam and a higher standard that most folks could do now. Can you amortize a loan? Close a ledger? Calculate return on an investment from a series of data points? Most can't today, regardless of college education. So, real education still has value.

Back then, most people finished school at grade 8. Those who went to High School were smart and motivated to further their education. So curricula could be correspondingly more challenging/faster-paced.

I'm 44yo now... my great grandmother was a school teacher starting in the 1930s, and her 5th grade books for English alone was far more difficult than anything I had through H.S.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#107

Post by zanny » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

finder83 wrote: post #56

ihm wrote: post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days. High school is becoming…

I'd argue that expansive view should be coming way, way earlier than high school.

How about before you beat the curiosity and sense of wonder out of 5-8 year olds with times tables, memorizing the dates presidents were born, and repeating the word "prepositional phrase" a thousand times - that would be a good time to start.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#108

Post by ticviking » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #73

snazz wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12 years of school, not 12 years of age. In the US, a student would be 17 or 18 after their full 12 years.

I understand this - I didn't assume that the student would start at age zero. If we're going into vocational training in their teen years, they'll have to starting teaching the classics and philosophy to tweens.

I think you may be surprised how much more ready they are for those than STEM details at that age.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#109

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

It's great that The Atlantic is finally putting out articles de-stigmatizing trade school. But, over the past several decades, The Atlantic has been a major contributor to the problem by churning out articles claiming how great and necessary college education is for all and how we should provide more subsidies and loans for higher education, without providing nearly as much attention to the utility of trade school. I'm sure countless Americans who would have been better off going to trade school instead of college have made that poorer decision as a result of The Alantic's editors and readers pushing too much for college degrees.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#110

Post by tracker1 » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

RankingMember wrote: post #75

SeanDav wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case. You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an educ…

The "need that piece of paper" thing is sad but true. I do think it is changing, as I notice more and more IT job postings asking for X degree or equivalent experience nowadays.

I'm generally happy to see the "or equivalent experience" as someone who squeaked through HS. I picked up programming in my late teens while doing design work and just kind of naturally fell into it. My first 5-7 years working in the field were particularly difficult as more than half the jobs didn't have that as part of the statement, and the HR types typically wouldn't even let you past the gate.