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China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

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Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#101

Post by jhedwards »

seabrookmx wrote: post #97

Honest question for someone who doesn't know the area well.. Macau and HK are both Cantonese speaking regions. Given that the Infrastructure updates in the area make everything "closer" (in terms of travel time etc), what impact is this having on language? Is this a Montreal type thing where most people are bilingual enough where it doesn't matter? Is Cantonese a de-facto street language in these South Chinese cities…

I'm not terribly familiar with that area but I know a bit about Chinese languages. HK and Macau are adjacent to Guangdong which is a Cantonese speaking province. There are many dialects within Cantonese, so someone from Taishan will speak a dialect of Cantonese that will probably be mutually intelligible with HK Cantonese but probably also has lots of major differences. I found a cool map of them on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Chinese#Distribution_and_v...

From what I know, as education improves and movement of people across large areas increases Mandarin becomes more and more common. As for movement within a Cantonese speaking area, I would guess that it might result in the adoption of a more common "standard" Cantonese over regional dialects in parallel with the increasing prevalence of Mandarin.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#102

Post by em500 »

johnzim wrote: post #91
ngcc_hk wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea is not sending hker to hell of communists. The struggle of hongkonger for basic human rights are getting worse and worse. Not sure why you get this idea.

CCP propaganda is strong - that's why. Look at the language used "return" - people still think HK was leased. It wasn't - the New Territories were. People don't care about HK people. I wish they did but no one does. At least Tibet has some awareness surrounding it in the West - HK just got hung out to dry. Of all the colonies from which British rule was removed, only HK got handed over to the thugs, thieves and tortu…

> Look at the language used "return" - people still think HK was leased. It wasn't - the New Territories were.

And most of Kowloon. As opposed to HK Island, which was obtained by legitimate conquest, I suppose?

> Of all the colonies from which British rule was removed, only HK got handed over to the thugs, thieves and torturers its population had previously escaped.

What realistic alternative would you have suggested to Thatcher at the time?

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#103

Post by Markoff »

seabrookmx wrote: post #97

Honest question for someone who doesn't know the area well.. Macau and HK are both Cantonese speaking regions. Given that the Infrastructure updates in the area make everything "closer" (in terms of travel time etc), what impact is this having on language? Is this a Montreal type thing where most people are bilingual enough where it doesn't matter? Is Cantonese a de-facto street language in these South Chinese cities…

watch Ten years (2015) anthology scifi (?) movie about Hong Kong, in one of the stories (Dialect) it's quite realistically foreshadowing what's gonna happen with languages in HK

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#104

Post by vkou »

smcl wrote: post #53
azurezyq wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's unavoidable actually. Basically US just begins to treat China as an eligible opponent. There were never "friendly" relationships between two superpowers in history if I remember correctly.

The US and the British Empire in first half of the 20th century (until the dissolution of the empire) might be an example

That's because the US (by this point) indisputably claimed one third of the world (The Monroe doctrine), whereas the UK was at the time more focused on being on the winning side of the European alliance system, then on making claims on American colonies. (Because it was afraid of an ascendant Germany. Fear of Germany was also the biggest driver for entering into an alliance with France.)

In the inter-war years, the UK was no longer concerned with Germany, but, due to the Great Depression, was also too damn broke to go on international adventures. The same situation played out in the US.

The only reason the two powers are now aligned, is because the United States started seeing communism, as opposed to European colonialism[1] as its biggest threat.

The moral of this story is that superpowers can have friendly relationships when they have a common enemy, or no conflicting goals.

An obvious question, here is - what are the conflicting goals of China, and the United States? The answer is - influence among China's neighbours. If the US was not interested in maintaining it, there would be no conflict.

[1] In the 19th century, European colonialism was a threat to American colonialism. In the 20th century, the American empire has resisted de-colonization a lot better then European powers did.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#105

Post by bllguo »

baybal2 wrote: post #67
wahern wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Firstly, nobody in the international community takes Trump at his word (he's a notorious liar who also follows a wholly transparent negotiating playbook, one that he's spent decades advertising). There is a theory that the Sun clan's "art of war" was intentionally disseminated among its enemies, to make them more willing to yield to negotiations, and make their maneuvers more systematised, and predictable at war. S…

Could we get some sources for this theory? I'm definitely no military expert but having read it, I don't really see how it encourages a more predictable and exploitable style of warfare. Plus the fact that people read and praise it in the modern day suggest it is truly useful.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#106

Post by NeedMoreTea »

em500 wrote: post #102
johnzim wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCP propaganda is strong - that's why. Look at the language used "return" - people still think HK was leased. It wasn't - the New Territories were. People don't care about HK people. I wish they did but no one does. At least Tibet has some awareness surrounding it in the West - HK just got hung out to dry. Of all the colonies from which British rule was removed, only HK got handed over to the thugs, thieves and tortu…

> Look at the language used "return" - people still think HK was leased. It wasn't - the New Territories were. And most of Kowloon. As opposed to HK Island, which was obtained by legitimate conquest, I suppose? > Of all the colonies from which British rule was removed, only HK got handed over to the thugs, thieves and torturers its population had previously escaped. What realistic alternative would you have suggested…

> What realistic alternative would you have suggested to Thatcher at the time?

Oh that's easy. Give every HKer a full British passport instead of creating an entirely new category of nationality, where they were still British Nationals, but not British Citizens. Then let in a token few thousand. Unforgivable.

Would have given HKers a free choice, and done wonders for the UK economy.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#107

Post by vkou »

gscott wrote: post #88
vkou wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes the BRI an over-extension? How does it compare to the economic and military extension of the other super-power?

Not only do you have BRI but massive internment camps, massively expensive surveillance systems, massive number of police officers, expensive great firewall. Look China is at war. It's just at war internally and spending a lot of money on it. This internal war is likely more expensive then USA's many foriegn misadventures. Thus China needs to go to Hong Kong to use their money and connections. China has no choice.

Even including the internment camps, the US still has the largest per-capita prison population in the world.

The UK has, for many years, had the most extensive physical surveillance system in the world, with the NSA having one of the more extensive digital surveillance systems.[1]

The Department of Defense employs 3.2 million people, 2.2 million of which are military (Active and otherwise). US police forces employ another 1 million. [2]

In contrast, China has ~1.6 million police officers (In a country four times more populous then the US), and ~2.3 million people in the military (Active and otherwise). There's probably a million or so of hanger-on people working in various administrative roles - but with China - who really knows?

The United States has been at war with enemies, internal, and external, for most of its existence. It is, as of Q1, 2019, fighting a few shooting wars against external enemies (Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis), and non-shooting wars against a larger number of other external enemies, as well as internal ones (African Americans, illegal immigrants, and, of course, working class people of all stripes.)

If anything, the list of reasons you've given are the bullet points for why the American empire, as it exists today, is unsustainable, and is about to fall apart under its own weight. [3]

[1] Both, of course, are irrelevant budgetary rounding errors. So is the GFC.

[2] If you've ever turned on the radio - or the television, have you ever noticed how many businesses specifically advertise, or cater to veterans, and their extended families? That's because nearly everyone in the US is, at most, two steps removed from an active, or former soldier. You don't see those kinds of advertisements in countries that don't have an over-sized military.

[3] In reality, it can probably continue on its trajectory for another two decades, or so. All of these bullet points were true in 1999, after all.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#108

Post by mobilefriendly »

vkou wrote: post #104
smcl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and the British Empire in first half of the 20th century (until the dissolution of the empire) might be an example

That's because the US (by this point) indisputably claimed one third of the world (The Monroe doctrine), whereas the UK was at the time more focused on being on the winning side of the European alliance system, then on making claims on American colonies. (Because it was afraid of an ascendant Germany. Fear of Germany was also the biggest driver for entering into an alliance with France.) In the inter-war years, the U…

You misunderstand the Monroe Doctrine. It was a policy of anti-colonialism in Latin America, supporting independent states free from European rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#109

Post by em500 »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #106
em500 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at the language used "return" - people still think HK was leased. It wasn't - the New Territories were. And most of Kowloon. As opposed to HK Island, which was obtained by legitimate conquest, I suppose? > Of all the colonies from which British rule was removed, only HK got handed over to the thugs, thieves and torturers its population had previously escaped. What realistic alternative would you have suggested…

> What realistic alternative would you have suggested to Thatcher at the time? Oh that's easy. Give every HKer a full British passport instead of creating an entirely new category of nationality, where they were still British Nationals, but not British Citizens. Then let in a token few thousand. Unforgivable. Would have given HKers a free choice, and done wonders for the UK economy.

Not easy at all, good luck getting it accepted by both the UK parliament and by Deng Xiaoping. People have this notion that the UK could do whatever they wanted in HK before 1997 (or at least before the negotiations with the PRC in the 1980s). But recently declassified documents revealed that the PRC was already pressuring the UK about HK affairs back in the 1950s.

Re: China Unveils Plan to Tie Hong Kong, Macau Closer to Mainland

#110

Post by killyp »

riffraff wrote: post #84
ende wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also not that impossible to imagine both being peer stakeholders in a renewed liberal trade order, ala US + EU.

And yet the US/EU relationship is at an all time low.

I would say that this depends on your perspective. While Trump likes to talk bad about the EU, NATO and FVEY members, our military, intelligence and economic cooperation is still VERY strong. And I see no indication of this changing, outside of the rhetoric coming out of the White House. Our Allies know that pulling out of Syria via Twitter was not a decision that came from the Pentagon.
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