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Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

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Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#101
post #18

Actual web page: http://www.public.asu.edu/~atppr/bodyscan.html Actual article: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.public.asu.edu... The first thing you'll learn in radiation safety is that the nature of the dose matters a lot. Sometimes you're A-OK if you can survive the initial dose. Other doses are accumulative. It depends on the energy of the radiation, the tissue's scattering cross-section, the time,…

This is a grossly irresponsible abuse of statistics. What's even stranger is that the author agrees. In his paper (conclusions, page 15):

>The major public health effect of concern at low doses of ionizing radiation is cancer. There is clear evidence of cancer induction at effective dose above about 200 mSv. Below an effective dose of about 100 mSv radiogenic cancer mortality risk estimates for all cancers is highly uncertain. 16 It is not possible to determine reliably whether a radiogenic risk is present in an X-ray screening population because of the high spontaneous incidence of cancer and multifactorial nature of disease causation 17.

>Use of collective dose to estimate public health impacts when large populations are exposed to trivial doses is inappropriate and not reasonable. The assumptions implicit in the collective dose calculation conceal large biological and statistical uncertainties.16 If an individual passenger is not harmed by X-ray screening then the population isn’t either.

"Inappropriate and not reasonable". Yet on his webpage (not submitted to peer review), he does exactly that.

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#102
post #87

I don't think I know anyone who isn't spitting mad about this TSA thing. Quite an accomplishment, really, for the feds to manage to unite the entire country - left, right, center, and from every strata of society - on a given issue. I didn't think such a thing was possible.

I went and had a long, hard look in the mirror when I found myself in suddenly agreement with Ron Paul, Matt Drudge and, wait for it ... Ann. F'ing. Coulter.

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#103
The effect of you dying from terrorism is not the same as the effect of you dying from backscatter radiation.

From a utilitarian standpoint, the chance of dying from something is not the most important factor in deciding where to put resources.

I'd also say, the neither of these numbers can be known in any accuracy right now, and there would be fast disagreement on any guess at what they might be.

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#104
post #43

So, the risk from a backscatter radiation machine is roughly equal to the risk from terrorism. The Federal Government, via the FDA, tells us that the risk of the backscatter machine is "minuscule". Therefore, in the Federal government's own risk terminology, the risk from terrorism is "miniscule". Why are we spending all this money on a "miniscule" threat? Why are sexually molesting the population over a "miniscule"…

Hrm . . . I could turn that logic on its side too: if you say people should not be that worried about terrorism, then why are people so worried about the health effects of backscatter radiation. IMO, a logical person cannot have it both ways.

One is more or less out of our control.

The other is within our control. Why voluntarily subject yourself to more risk?

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#105
post #33

1 in 30M? so, with over 600M passengers per year, that's roughly 20 people a year who would get cancer (and die?) because of those machines. I'm not sure how credible are those stats, but I wouldn't want to be making decisions at the TSA right now...

>I'm not sure how credible are those stats,

The author himself doesn't believe them. Here's what he (Peter Rez) says in the paper this is based on:

>The major public health effect of concern at low doses of ionizing radiation is cancer. There is clear evidence of cancer induction at effective dose above about 200 mSv. Below an effective dose of about 100 mSv radiogenic cancer mortality risk estimates for all cancers is highly uncertain. 16 It is not possible to determine reliably whether a radiogenic risk is present in an X-ray screening population because of the high spontaneous incidence of cancer and multifactorial nature of disease causation 17.

>Use of collective dose to estimate public health impacts when large populations are exposed to trivial doses is inappropriate and not reasonable. The assumptions implicit in the collective dose calculation conceal large biological and statistical uncertainties.16 If an individual passenger is not harmed by X-ray screening then the population isn’t either.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.public.asu.edu... (page 15)

linked from

http://www.public.asu.edu/~atppr/bodyscan.html

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism can in both small and very large ways effect entire nations. backscatter radiation? Not so much. It's illogical to compare the two and make judgments on based solely on the death rate. You don't need to kill people (all of them) to influence them.

So then perhaps the best way to protect a nation from terrorism is not to be influenced by it.

I hesitate to say "of course", because it sounds trite, and the underlying issue is serious. But this is precisely what we did in the UK during the IRA (Irish terrorist organisation) years. And we were encouraged to do that by the media and government. And as stiff upper lipped Brits, we did so with pride :)

I myself saw the outcomes of three of the bombs personally -- by which I mean still smoking -- and picnicked on the Regent's Park bandstand on the Sunday which was blown up on the Tuesday; the bomb would have been there at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Park_and_Regent%27s_Park_b...

None of this changed my behaviour at the time, nor did it appear to do so for anyone else, other than being vigilant for strange packages.

So yes, the correct response is not to be influenced by it. In other words, do not give up your way of life because of murdering cowards.

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#107
post #74

Airport in Orlando opts out of using TSA to screen their passengers: http://www.examiner.com/libertarian-in-national/florida-airp...

This is the best news I've heard on this topic. If enough airports were to do this, things would change at the TSA.

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#108
I can't believe that even on HN there are so many posts about something so dumb. Our country is up in arms about some new X-ray machines that a corrupt defense contractor sold to an overzealous department of homeland security in a panic after 9/11, and yet we are hardly this angry about the 2 wars we are fighting or the fact that the New Start treaty is about to be ran over with a bulldozer.

Please, let's get over the stupid X-rays machines. Let Fox News and CNN cover this one.

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#109
post #21
post #4

More tellingly, on an average two-hour flight, you'd receive about 100 times the radiation from a single scan. But, by using the transitive property, you're more likely to die from radiation at flying altitudes than from a terrorist attack on said airplane. EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to include the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_X-ray#Health_effect... Which comes from: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/…

This comparison is meaningless. The risk of cancer is caused by DNA errors. Your cells are constantly checking and repairing your DNA for mutations and damage. They can usually repair or detect a low error rate, like the kind you get from living at high altitude, in a house with a minor radon source, or flying on a plane. What they can't deal with as well is a sudden burst of many errors. Backscatter X-ray scanners d…

>What they can't deal with as well is a sudden burst of many errors.

Actually that is false, as far as low doses:

>When you are asked whether there is a critical time period over which 1 rem of dose may have a greater biological impact than it might otherwise have, the answer is "No." One rem of dose is sufficiently low that whether it was delivered within one second or spread over a year or more, we would not expect any difference in biological effects.

https://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q8325.html

(For comparison, 1 uSv = 0.1 mrem).

>The risk of cancer is caused by DNA errors. Your cells are constantly checking and repairing your DNA for mutations and damage. They can usually repair or detect a low error rate

But in this dose regime, ionization events are so rare, that they are so far apart that no cell experiences more than one. There is no variation in error rate.

Re: Chance of Dying From Backscatter Radiation Same as Chance of Terrorism

#110
post #87

I don't think I know anyone who isn't spitting mad about this TSA thing. Quite an accomplishment, really, for the feds to manage to unite the entire country - left, right, center, and from every strata of society - on a given issue. I didn't think such a thing was possible.

The accomplishment is amazing. I guess our country really still does care about liberty and -- imagine this -- the constitution.

Trouble is, are people going to do anything with their "spitting mad[ness]?" I hope they do.

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