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Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

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Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#101

Post by yawaramin »

eecc wrote: post #83
yawaramin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not about you. It's about the women who see the image, understand its history, and see it as another reminder of how tech is not just male-dominated but thoughtlessly so (having Playboy issues lying around in the research lab) and where women are literally reduced to objects. From the article: > “As silly as it sounds, they were surprised she was a real person,” he told me. Women notice stuff like that,…

Frankly I think it’s so overstated that it’s edging toward self-parody. Of course a straight male won’t ever be able to compute the monstrosity of Patriarchy - ironically, it makes me a lesser human - but seriously, I’m not sure all this vitriol helps. Believe me, I’m relieved when I see a normal woman work at software. It raises my hope that we’re not inevitability stuck living in a Mad Men episode. A normal woman,…

Do you ever think maybe that most normal women walk away when they see a culture of objectification of women, of men making up all sorts of weird analogies and excuses to keep using Playboy pictures in the workplace, and that you telling them to just 'chill' might not actually fix the problem?

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#102

Post by yawaramin »

kyberias wrote: post #55
yawaramin wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said anything about the agency of Playboy models, only about the inappropriateness of using Playboy or other NSFW materials in professional environments making women uncomfortable. In the privacy of your own home, do whatever you like (legally). But don't bring it into the office!

But it most definitely is not a NSFW image because it was cropped.

It's not explicit but it is suggestive, and it takes on a new dimension if you know its context.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#103

Post by yawaramin »

cotelletta wrote: post #94
yawaramin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not about you. It's about the women who see the image, understand its history, and see it as another reminder of how tech is not just male-dominated but thoughtlessly so (having Playboy issues lying around in the research lab) and where women are literally reduced to objects. From the article: > “As silly as it sounds, they were surprised she was a real person,” he told me. Women notice stuff like that,…

So you're saying women are insecure and easily triggered, offended by sexuality, and need people like you to stand up for them, got it. But seriously, why don't you tell that minority of women who complain about this that it's not about them either? Btw, the article claims that the perception of computing changed from menial labor to a cerebral activity for men. But surely the actual content of the field changed the…

Nope not at all, I'm just saying that it's not appropriate to bring sexuality into the workplace because it makes people (not just women) uncomfortable. I'm also not saying I'm standing up for anyone, but it's always fun to come across this 'they don't need you to stand up for them' as an argument tactic, because that's when I know there are no actual arguments there.

The fact that some women spoke up about this doesn't mean that only those women find it objectionable; many may have just decided it wasn't worth the grief (and rightly, given how many replies I got to my original post!) and just moved away.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#104

Post by yawaramin »

v64 wrote: post #54
yawaramin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If context matters, we can't apply our modern standards to a time with different standards. In the context of the time when the image was originally promulgated, it was done without controversy. The act is only controversial outside of its original historical context. You make it sound like this was 500 years ago! Anyway, no one is saying to retroactively condemn the people who did it. They are saying to stop using…

And I think we need to ask, if the subject of the photograph is "proud of that picture" and feels that the photograph is "an immense accomplishment", then why are modern audiences perceiving it in a negative light? If Lena came out saying she felt abused by the distribution of her photograph in this manner and that the practice needed to cease, I would agree with you. But her comments indicate to me that individuals…

Because the fact of the photograph itself is separate from the fact of it being connected to objectification of women in the workplace. It's not just about what Ms Forsen feels or believes, it's about what women in the workplace perceive when they see these kinds of pictures being normalized and defended.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#105

Post by yawaramin »

feanaro wrote: post #65
yawaramin wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know–it depends! It's difficult to talk hypotheticals. In the end it's all about the context.

Why is it difficult? The hypothetical makes all the relevant information available. What information are you using right now when dealing the judgement of "inappropriate" to the current situation?

Like I said, it's very difficult to talk about hypotheticals because in real life there are always unintended consequences. For example, the model from the cropped image from the mainstream publication may have later spoken out that she was made to feel uncomfortable during the photo shoot. And people may find that objectionable. As long as we keep talking in hypotheticals, we can justify anything!

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#106

Post by abricot »

loosetypes wrote: post #73

I wasn't aware of the compared cases from the article such as Suzanne Vega, "The Mother of the MP3", or Susan Bennett, the namesake for Siri. But I have heard that a 3d model of Thom Yorke (Radiohead)'s head is the de facto standard for 3d printer trials.

So it isn't Benchy?

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#107

Post by _oqcu »

underwater wrote: post #19
iamleppert wrote: post #12

What’s wrong with female beauty? It’s not like it’s porn or a nude image. I’m not even a straight male but I can still appreciate female beauty and I don’t think it’s sexist. The photo is more artistic than anything. I wonder if the same people who complain about this photo lodge similar complaints when they visit art museums that have female nudity in oil paintings or nude female sculptures? I know nudity and even a…

Because it makes a significant portion of the population feel objectified? This is literally what happened to "Lenna" - the image didn't celebrate or honour her as a person. It was an image protraying an unrealistic "beautiful thing". People didn't even know her real name, or what she's achieved as a real person. It's perfectly reasonable and rational for women to say this makes it harder for them to be perceived as…

> the image didn't celebrate or honour her as a person. It was an image protraying an unrealistic "beautiful thing". People didn't even know her real name, or what she's achieved as a real person.

Because it's a test image not a novel.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#108

Post by paulnechifor »

59nadir wrote: post #59

Lena Forsén* You'd think, having written a whole article about her, you'd be able to spell her name right. It's incredible to me how relaxed people in English speaking countries, particularly the US, are with removing and changing letters as they see fit. I remember seeing someone on Reddit, for example, who had named their kid Soren, after Søren Kierkegaard, completely ignoring that it's not even the same name. Do p…

Yeah, I dislike this too. It's not as if you have to change your keyboard layout to write a foreign name. You can just copy paste it.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#109

Post by eecc »

yawaramin wrote: post #101
eecc wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I think it’s so overstated that it’s edging toward self-parody. Of course a straight male won’t ever be able to compute the monstrosity of Patriarchy - ironically, it makes me a lesser human - but seriously, I’m not sure all this vitriol helps. Believe me, I’m relieved when I see a normal woman work at software. It raises my hope that we’re not inevitability stuck living in a Mad Men episode. A normal woman,…

Do you ever think maybe that most normal women walk away when they see a culture of objectification of women, of men making up all sorts of weird analogies and excuses to keep using Playboy pictures in the workplace, and that you telling them to just 'chill' might not actually fix the problem?

And you’re still arguing along that fault line... and that’s the point really, it’s all about original sin and “gatekeepng”.

Re: Finding Lena Forsen, the Patron Saint of JPEGs

#110

Post by tghw »

v64 wrote: post #31
yawaramin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not about you. It's about the women who see the image, understand its history, and see it as another reminder of how tech is not just male-dominated but thoughtlessly so (having Playboy issues lying around in the research lab) and where women are literally reduced to objects. From the article: > “As silly as it sounds, they were surprised she was a real person,” he told me. Women notice stuff like that,…

I think it's important to keep in mind that Lena Forsen (and the other models of Playboy) made the decision to be photographed nude and to have those photos published as a creative expression. To portray the exhibition as exploitative robs them of their agency and demeans their decision.

The issue isn't her agency in choosing to model or not. The issue is that casually having a Playboy around work is in and of itself exclusionary. It taints the history of graphics research because it is so clearly inappropriate, and only in a very broken work culture would it be remotely okay to have that sort of stuff just laying around.
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