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Whitespace killed an enterprise app

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Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#101
post #27
post #8

One point: >Are there things my users really don’t need to see right now? If you don’t know, ask! ASK! ASK! ASK! For the love of god please ask your users. I worked for a company with a big clunky enterprise app. It got redesigned numerous times and rolled out with big fanfare. Nobody who used for any significant amount of time was involved in any of the redesigns. It was horrible every time with numerous changes jus…

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

> Watch them work.

This x1000! I took on a freelance project for a heavy machinery hauling company. They were a year into transitioning away from some customized off the shelf Enterprise scheduling and dispatch system into some custom built software by an “Enterprise” consulting company.

They were originally bringing me in to audit what the team that was building it but that pretty much changed on the day I submitted my proposal...

In the proposal I wrote to my then prospective client I allocated a couple of days of onsite interviews with “lower than management” people that would be using the system or it’s outputs, and a week of shadowing people in all roles that would be directly using the system. The project sponsor (to his credit) didn’t ask me why I would need to do that, he started laughing and exclaimed that I was the only person to ever even recommend this approach.

We ended up re-writing the proposal into multiple phases where I just interviewed and assessed, documented their current processes, provided business process workflows and suggested ways their current workflow could be optimized, irrespective of any one technological solution. A crappy process, then automated, is still crappy.

I wound up spending 6 weeks before even proposing anything that had to do with technology.

My implementation proposal was set in phases that would bring related functions to light in a way that their teams could begin using them right away and we could collect feedback and iterate while producing the next set of features as well. It was their first ‘agile’ project or contract and the fear was quelled when after the first month I had put more useful software in their dispatchers hands than the “Enterprise” team had in a year.

From day one interviews to “finished” project we spent about 6 months and that system still lives 9 years later- though it has been modernized and upgraded every so often in the intervening time, it is still one of my proudest projects even though it was one of the least “sexy” I’ve ever done.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#102
post #86
post #46

The local bank office used to have text terminals (ok, this is a long time ago). I distinctly remember that they got much slower at getting work done when they switched to a colorful GUI. They did not switch back to the text terminals. If you deal with processes that don't change much, it's a questionable decision.

Yes, terminals could be a lot faster. A major advantage that often seemed to be overlooked in the rush from terminals to web pages is that if you pressed a key that took you to the next screen, your next keypresses would be queued up and they'd go into the next screen when it was ready. So if workers were following a familiar process, there was often zero latency when changing screens because they could just start ty…

it's even worse when you consider that modern computers are much slower than an apple 2e: https://danluu.com/input-lag/

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#103
post #8

One point: >Are there things my users really don’t need to see right now? If you don’t know, ask! ASK! ASK! ASK! For the love of god please ask your users. I worked for a company with a big clunky enterprise app. It got redesigned numerous times and rolled out with big fanfare. Nobody who used for any significant amount of time was involved in any of the redesigns. It was horrible every time with numerous changes jus…

lack of communication is main issue in all issues. people thing 'user' opinion is worthless or they lie or cheat you, but fun fact is that if they don't like your fancypants app, it will get shot down and cost you either time , money or clients or a combination of the three. if you ask ask ask, and then subsequently put it all in writing, verify with everyone they agree on the plan, they can never hold it against you even if they lied and cheated.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#104
post #27
post #8

One point: >Are there things my users really don’t need to see right now? If you don’t know, ask! ASK! ASK! ASK! For the love of god please ask your users. I worked for a company with a big clunky enterprise app. It got redesigned numerous times and rolled out with big fanfare. Nobody who used for any significant amount of time was involved in any of the redesigns. It was horrible every time with numerous changes jus…

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

And only change what are real problems. Maybe something like a user needs to navigate to three different pages to get the information they need. That's something you can improve.

But resist the urge to do a general facelift or reorganization just for cosmetics. Users can fly through the ugliest interfaces, even text-mode terminal interfaces, once they get used to them. Change that at all, and they will be stumbling around and complaining. That can be worth in the end if their usual workflows are now shorter and faster, but tread carefully. Users of enterprise apps really don't care too much about how they look.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#105
Was a PM for a product that got criticism for its lack of density. When you are building a powerful tool for power users, you may need density and a lot of levers for flexibility. The consumer/enterprise distinction is huge here.

As a domain expert, I was for a sparse UX that emphasized the awesome just-works power of the product. I'll never forget how one bank IT director customer said, "I just can't pay for something with this little on the screen. Can you add more stuff?"

I think the key PM-fail on my part was privately scoffing to the architects afterwards that while we reduced the whites pace, we should also implement the ruby acts_as_enterprisey module to make the product seem crappier. This lack of people insight (and downside of visionary personality type attitude) pretty much summarized my limits as a PM.

Real lesson for us was: enterprise users trade on demonstrating their value by performing complex work. It's job security. The stakeholders you need to close an enterprise sale include those users. If your product or UX trivializes someone's job, they are going to fight you.

When they say they don't want your UX but they want your data, what they are really saying is, they don't need the problem you think you are solving solved, they are indexed on finding a way to demonstrate their value.

I"m learning this the hard way now with a product that doesn't quite close the knowledge gap for non-experts, but am finding it's simplicity is undermining to the authority of experts. Solving problems and demonstrating value are very different things. It's like building a tools vs. building instruments.

The UX question I need to answer is, does my product solve a problem, or help a problem solver demonstrate value? If a) then the end user is not my customer, if b) it's going to need a lot more knobs and whistles.

White space isn't just white space, it represents the expression of functionality to the customer.

The UX design question always takes you back to first principles, who is your customer and what do they need?

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God yes, the older reddit interface was so much better. I don't give a shit how pretty the UI is.

Craigslist is _the_ case study on how an ugly UI can survive over a long timeline. There are many techies and UI designers that are just disgusted at the UI of craigslist. For some, aesthetic is more important than usability. Luckily, for most, it's not.

Yes exactly. CL is probably my favorite website on the internet, for the sheer reason that they have virtually not changed at all since they first launched over 10 years ago. It's fairly incredible. I can't think of another website that has done that.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#107

I'm somewhat in the minority, but I like plain html that puts the right stuff in the right place way better than an unnecessarily designed masterpiece.

I agree, aesthetics have no place in an information processing environment. The emphasis should be on interface latency and predictability.

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#108
I don't really agree about the merging of information (the rest is fine). In the example, what happens if you want to sort by state or zip (assuming they are sortable)? The upgrade is really just a downgrade functionality wise in that case. This is something I find happens time and time again, an app will get redesigned and lose functionality to look simpler. It might not be the case here if it doesn't need to allow sorting, but I hate that general trend/idea.

There are better ways to have less crowded information (custom optional columns), that doesn't remove functionality. Also the more flexible a UI, imo, the better, so long as the flexibility does not increase complexity too much and it's obvious (if the setting for the columns is hidden in some obscure place, it's useless).

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#109
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

> Except users lie all the time. That's the starting point for all the garbage enterprise apps I've ever used. Someone that has no clue what the users are doing makes a decision about how best to design an app that they don't even know how to test. Don't ask them how to design the app. Ask them what they do with the app, then find the best way to get them where they need to go. Then let them test the first and second…

ofcourse you dont ask them how to design. you are hired as the designer. ask them for specifications / limitations / painpoints in the current system etc. etc. and base your design upon their feedback on actual relevant questions.

a plumber doesnt ask his customer how to plumb. just which pipes need fixin! doesn't go fix the toilet if the shower is broken :S

Re: Whitespace killed an enterprise app

#110
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ASK! ASK! ASK! Except users lie all the time. They don't know what they need or want. People are horrible at being logical about what will actually help them. Watch them work. Watch a bunch of people work. Test and prototype changes and watch more people work. And watch them work at their desk or where ever they work.

> Except users lie all the time. That's the starting point for all the garbage enterprise apps I've ever used. Someone that has no clue what the users are doing makes a decision about how best to design an app that they don't even know how to test. Don't ask them how to design the app. Ask them what they do with the app, then find the best way to get them where they need to go. Then let them test the first and second…

> I've ever used. Someone that has no clue what the users are doing makes a decision about how best to design an app that they don't even know how to test.

You're talking at cross-purposes.

To get a sense of how people are interacting with the software you have to watch them interact with the software. The moment you ask them a question about UX you'll begin to get low quality input that you can't trust:

* user is expressing an exaggerated desire for some esoteric feature that nobody else would use or discover

* user is repeating what they think should be decent design

* user is agreeing with a criticism they don't understand because they want to appear knowledgeable

All of those and many other problems go away when you just watch somebody use an interface.

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