National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners • Hacker News Board

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#101

Post by aneth » Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 1:22 AM UTC

dalke wrote: post #96

aneth wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fly to LA. By far better I mean the procedures are faster, better explained, and the operation is more professional. My point is not to advocate government run security, but to point out that all this reactionary criticism of TSA is unjustified and it's crowdthink going on right now.

But is the security any better? Back in the 1990s the procedures were faster (because there was less checking) and better explained (because there were fewer things to explain). Does 3-1-1 and taking off of shoes make us more secure? If not, then the professionalism is unwarranted. And every study report I've seen says that outside of a few things (secure doors, which the airlines fought against in the 1990s; and hal…

By this logic, we could drop all security checks. I'm sure no one would ever board a plane strapped with explosives...

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#102

Post by dalke » Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 8:59 AM UTC

aneth wrote: post #101

dalke wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is the security any better? Back in the 1990s the procedures were faster (because there was less checking) and better explained (because there were fewer things to explain). Does 3-1-1 and taking off of shoes make us more secure? If not, then the professionalism is unwarranted. And every study report I've seen says that outside of a few things (secure doors, which the airlines fought against in the 1990s; and hal…

By this logic, we could drop all security checks. I'm sure no one would ever board a plane strapped with explosives...

That's not what I said and your logic makes no sense.

A few months ago we had security X. We now have security Y, which is more expensive and more intrusive. Is that change justifiable? The TSA has not really justified this, which is easy to see from the Government Accountability Office reports.

A decade ago we had security A. We now have security Y (still). The same argument holds - are flights more secure, and which security factors are beneficial and which are not? Quite clearly the secure doors and rejection of the policy to agree to hijacker demands are effective against a broad range of attacks meant to use airplanes as a directed weapon. This is a security change I would not drop.

But since the GAO has shown that it's as easy to smuggle in "bomb parts" into an airport during periods A and Y, there is quite clearly limited improvement in the effectiveness of preventing people from blowing up planes. Note that this is a different security threat than in the previous paragraph.

How here does this equal to a logical conclusion that we should drop all security checks? That only makes sense if you think that none of the security screenings work, which I quite clearly did not say.

Oh, and in your original post you said you "found 95% of the TSA to be good humored and responsible." If you deal with 3 TSA people each trip then every 5 trips you'll be dealing with a non-good humored or non-responsible TSA member. If in a 1990s-era airport you found that only 90% of the staff was the same, but you only needed to deal with a single magnetometer staff, then you would have problems only every 7 trips. More professional staff doesn't necessarily mean a better experience.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#103

Post by sixtofour » Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 6:31 PM UTC

sp4rki wrote: post #98

sixtofour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An argument could be made, a really depressing argument in so many ways, that including children and grandmothers in the TSA's sexual assaults is for their protection, because if they were exempt, they could be targets for hiding contraband.

But what happens when terrorist children shove explosives inside themselves through their anuses, or when terrorist grandma shoves a handgun inside her vagina? It's a very slippery slope to climb without a safety-line mate. The minimal increase in security this new procedures allows is just too small in contrast to the vast damage it does towards people's liberties and towards avoiding precedents that could influence…

I'm not making the argument that I noted, I'm just pointing out that it fits within the twisted logic of our current situation.

I agree with your points, and I don't feel any safer for the new procedures. Indeed, I feel less safe, because the TSA's efforts are misdirected, and the TSA has demonstrated its disdain for me, my rights and my dignity.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#104

Post by sp4rki » Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 11:46 PM UTC

sixtofour wrote: post #103

sp4rki wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what happens when terrorist children shove explosives inside themselves through their anuses, or when terrorist grandma shoves a handgun inside her vagina? It's a very slippery slope to climb without a safety-line mate. The minimal increase in security this new procedures allows is just too small in contrast to the vast damage it does towards people's liberties and towards avoiding precedents that could influence…

I'm not making the argument that I noted, I'm just pointing out that it fits within the twisted logic of our current situation. I agree with your points, and I don't feel any safer for the new procedures. Indeed, I feel less safe, because the TSA's efforts are misdirected, and the TSA has demonstrated its disdain for me, my rights and my dignity.

Oh no I got from your post that you where not making that specific point. Sorry if I came off as 'protective' of my ideals or something, I was just trying to convey why I thought that the TSA policies are rubbish. I agree with you that there is a counterpoint to the way I see everything regarding this, I just think that the counter point is as misguided as the policies are.

Re: National Opt-Out Day Called Against Invasive Body Scanners

#105

Post by sp4rki » Sun, Nov 14, 2010, 11:58 PM UTC

aneth wrote: post #100

sp4rki wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You called the communities opinion pathetic, based on some erroneous what "ifs" you came up with. Lot's of people just gave you their point of view on why you're wrong and others just down voted you because you didn't back up anything you said with facts. Here's my take: 1) I don't care about anyone seeing me naked, I've been working out for years, four times a week to look like I look now and if could walk butt nake…

Thanks for the feedback, however I did not call the community's opinion pathetic, nor did I state a bunch of ifs. In fact I did not even use the word "if" that I could find, nor did I state conditionals in any other way. I did say there was a pathetic lack of rational discussion, and I was not referring to HN specifically, but instead the general public discourse. I did not comment "for the sake of disagreeing," but…

I get that you didn't mean it as a put down, I was just expressing to you how it read for me (and probably for a lot of people). I didn't mean to come off as aggressive towards you specifically, I was more being aggressive towards the idea itself.

Now I don't see where the general disdain relates to the TSA agents themselves, with the exceptions of a few posts stating that people that work as TSA agents would resign as a result of this policies, and I agree with you in that they aren't the ones that should have to deal with out unhappiness with the policies.

It's not that people think that they have a right to not be searched, it's that people think they have a right to not be treated in a way that demeans them and that violates some of the basic human rights they posses. There is no expectation of privacy on an airport, and as such you should be searched for dangerous artifacts and weapons, but that doesn't mean that you should be stripped by a machine or 'fondled' and 'groped' without a reason. There is no expectation of privacy while walking down the street or getting into a bus, and as such, but that doesn't give the right to anyone to take naked xray pictures of your person or to touch you in way you not deem appropriate.

You might get plenty or courtesy on behalf of the TSA agents, and that's great; however the fight is not with the agents themselves, it's with the policies that demand people to submit to potentially damaging irradiation or to a search procedure that proves to be invasive and with which you don't feel comfortable with.