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Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

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Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#101

Things that keep me up at night as a software contractor/freelancer: if there's a recession, are contractors the first to go? One counter-argument is that contractors can be a cheaper way for companies to build products (since it's not full time), which might mean companies favor contractors. On the other hand, companies who are reluctant to lay off full-time staff may start by canceling contract relationships.

I was a freelance dev contractor in the 2008/2009 financial crisis.

To what you said above, both can be true. But it depends on the client's business.

I got completely crushed last time. But my clients were primarily in travel and fashion/lifestyle which both got hit hard early. And I was trying to bootstrap a social media startup at the time, which was also in travel. So I got destroyed.

Typically agencies and freelancers are the first to feel a recession. Vendors are more expendable than W-2 employees so contracts get stalled out or cancelled as soon as the warning signs hit the board room.

However... I've known of some people who actually did quite well last time around. Generally they were offering lower rates than the competition and specialized in maintaining software that was essential to recession-proof businesses (like entertainment, education, government etc). They had long-term contracts where they were essential to these businesses, and they lowered their rates to be competitive. This was eventually how I recovered as well.

Basically my advice is - prepare to shift from quality to quantity for a bit, diversify your client portfolio and put effort into building long term clients where you're essential.

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#102

If you could know a recession was inevitable some time soon from publicly available information then that recession wouldn't happen in the predicted time frame. Everybody would see it coming, take their money out of the market, and it would happen instantly.

That would assume everybody can interpret the information correctly and make an unemotional decision regarding their investments. In reality, everyone wants the party to go on indefinitely.

Stupid money certainly exists but it tends to systematically flow to smarter investors. This causes smarter investors to make up the majority of the money in the market. I don't want to suggest that the market is perfect. It can remain quite ignorant of important facts like "Sometimes housing market values become highly correlated" for quite a while. But once these facts become known it tends to respond very quickly.

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#103
post #77

If you could know a recession was inevitable some time soon from publicly available information then that recession wouldn't happen in the predicted time frame. Everybody would see it coming, take their money out of the market, and it would happen instantly.

That's not what happened ten years ago in many different countries.

Some people were predicting the Great Recession ahead of time but not any more than are typically predicting a recession soon.

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#104
post #94
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you invest just before a recession? Keep your cash and invest when the market is down.

You should always be investing because timing the market is a fools errand. The question is how much?

Isn't that timing too?

Or it is wise when you allocate 5/95 split to stock/bond but fool's errand when it is 0/100

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#105

Things that keep me up at night as a software contractor/freelancer: if there's a recession, are contractors the first to go? One counter-argument is that contractors can be a cheaper way for companies to build products (since it's not full time), which might mean companies favor contractors. On the other hand, companies who are reluctant to lay off full-time staff may start by canceling contract relationships.

I was a freelance dev contractor in the 2008/2009 financial crisis. To what you said above, both can be true. But it depends on the client's business. I got completely crushed last time. But my clients were primarily in travel and fashion/lifestyle which both got hit hard early. And I was trying to bootstrap a social media startup at the time, which was also in travel. So I got destroyed. Typically agencies and freel…

"diversify your client portfolio"

This is a really interesting thought that I hadn't considered. I always hear to diversify your investment portfolio, but the thought of diversifying your client list is fascinating. It makes a lot of sense though.

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#106

If you could know a recession was inevitable some time soon from publicly available information then that recession wouldn't happen in the predicted time frame. Everybody would see it coming, take their money out of the market, and it would happen instantly.

And with this mindset most people will not take any action until the big guys have taken an action. The timing could be the predicted time frame. But it is only too late by then and middle and lower class suffer. Top 1% controls around 40% of America's wealth.

Small players who try to time the market are going to lose out to the big players. You seriously should not try unless you feel like donating a portion of your retirement savings to Goldman and Sachs bonuses. Just invest not thinking you know the future and let the Jötunn try to outsmart each other.

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#107
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can something "suggest" a recession is "unavoidable." If its a suggestion, then by definition it isn't unavoidable. Nonsense. Say I have a coin that I suspect has heads on both sides. Instead of just checking the coin, I flip it ten times in a row and check the result -- ten heads. "Coin flips suggest 'heads' unavoidable." The article is saying there is some situation in which a recession is unavoidable, and si…

My point is that we're talking about a prediction regarding something for which there will always be a degree of uncertainty. The reason the author is "suggesting" a recession is unavoidable is because there's no such thing as an unavoidable recession, just as there is no such thing as an unavoidable heads coin flip.

[deleted]

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#108
post #87

If you could know a recession was inevitable some time soon from publicly available information then that recession wouldn't happen in the predicted time frame. Everybody would see it coming, take their money out of the market, and it would happen instantly.

The author said as much himself: > Yet, I wonder if it is possible to have a recession when so many people expect one. The worst recessions are the ones that people don’t see coming.

He said that, but he's still saying that there's a recession which is foreseeable by anyone, unavoidable, and hasn't happened yet. No recession has all three of those traits.

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume contractors are first to go. Work moves in house. In house staff gets cut. The remaining staff gets to work on what the contractor did and what the employees that left did. The company is not beholden to contractors as much as they are to their left over employees. Everybody has got to pay bill. The company will usually look out for their employees.

A company will usually look out for those generating the most value. Which is the point of a company in the first place.

You cannot assume this to always be true. The company could have a directive from C-levels to cut all contractors plus 10% of staff and retain the rest. You never know. Sometimes there are competing interests that effectively "tie the hands" of managers to make the most logical choice.

Re: Market Moves Suggest a Recession Is Unavoidable

#110
post #17

How can something "suggest" a recession is "unavoidable." If its a suggestion, then by definition it isn't unavoidable. These articles are silly. You'll find them for every time the market sneezes. October 2015, World Faces a Recession Next Year: https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/13/citis-buiter-world-faces-rec... June 2016, The Next Recession is Already Here: https://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/21/the-next-recession-is-alread..…

> How can something "suggest" a recession is "unavoidable." If its a suggestion, then by definition it isn't unavoidable. Nonsense. Say I have a coin that I suspect has heads on both sides. Instead of just checking the coin, I flip it ten times in a row and check the result -- ten heads. "Coin flips suggest 'heads' unavoidable." The article is saying there is some situation in which a recession is unavoidable, and si…

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