How cities can fix tourism hell • Hacker News Board

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#101

Post by rightbyte » Sun, Nov 18, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #93

frio wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venice is an extreme case, I agree. That's one of the places that we visited that had the small kind of bed tax I'm thinking of; unfortunately that probably isn't fixing their problems. Many of their tourists stay in cruise ships (which have to have the lagoon dredged to support them; sinking Venice itself...); a bed tax doesn't target them, and they're completely and utterly overwhelmed regardless. It was a fascinat…

Significant bed tax in Venice leads to people staying in Mestre or further afield and commuting in. From your post it sounds like cruise ships are the main problem. Why not increase the cost for them to dock? A tourist tax doesn’t really increase the cost of staying somewhere - if I’m willing g to spend $200 on a hotel in Venice it doesn’t matter if it’s $190 for the hotel and $10 for the tax, or $100 each. On the ot…

Shouldn't a bed tax increases the price? Low margin hotels will be forced to shut down since the margin just is taxed and if they increase the price they will lose guests.

A bed tax is essentially cutting the demand.

You could make the bed tax season adjusted. The peak months are the main problem.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#102

Post by tropo » Mon, Nov 19, 2018, 3:59 AM UTC

longerthoughts wrote: post #51

forrestthewoods wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't even know how much they're paying in tourist taxes. I certainly don't. It's a hard-to-see line item on lodging, attractions, event space, etc. What's the total cost? I don't know. Probably more than 1 percent and less than 5? How many more people would travel if costs were reduced by 5 percent? More than zero, less than a lot. I was responding to a post arguing for MORE tourist taxes. I think we sho…

Right, people hardly even consider tourist taxes and they’re often not visible when you’re rate shopping. So help me understand this claim from your original post: >Tourist taxes are how you destroy diversity and trap people into the tiny bubble in which they were born

Because tourist taxes are not visible, I assume the worst. This discourages me from travel. I may be wrong, but I just assume that the cost of a trip will be far higher than I'm told.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#103

Post by linkregister » Mon, Nov 19, 2018, 6:08 AM UTC

yardie wrote: post #67

linkregister wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ultimately the solution of taxing tourists does not work well in practice. Got any examples? Many cities in the world have tourism taxes, charged as a per-night fee added to hotel bills. Miami has a beach fee for tourists. Somehow, despite no income tax, Miami manages to stay solvent.

Just a small correction. Miami has a hotel bed tax, not a beach fee. I have friends and family that visit and stay with us regularly. They have never been charged to stay with me nor go to the beach. Compared to the rest of the tourist traps down here the beach is one of the best values. As for the cities of Miami and Miami Beach being solvent, LOL. Depends on who you ask. There is never enough money for the things w…

If you are staying at a hotel and want to use its beach chair, you are charged a usage tax. It's somewhere around $10.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#104

Post by linkregister » Mon, Nov 19, 2018, 6:14 AM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #65

linkregister wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ultimately the solution of taxing tourists does not work well in practice. Got any examples? Many cities in the world have tourism taxes, charged as a per-night fee added to hotel bills. Miami has a beach fee for tourists. Somehow, despite no income tax, Miami manages to stay solvent.

I don't think Miami is worried about becoming reduced to just tourism (aren't they already?), so it's not really a counterexample to GP's point. Ed: explicitness

Tourism is the primary component of Miami's economy, though it is hardly the only sector. International trade and banking together occupy a larger proportion of Miami's economy.

http://www.city-data.com/us-cities/The-South/Miami-Economy.h...

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#105

Post by taysic » Mon, Nov 19, 2018, 6:30 AM UTC

pj_mukh wrote: post #35

buboard wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but if it's not enough to put them off, the tax doesn't work

The idea isn't to put them off, that seems like a mindlessly cynical goal. Build the infrastructure to support the larger numbers. If the infrastructure needs to discriminate against tourists, that's fine too (e.g. added trains for tourists vs. commuters), new digital methods tool can allow for this.

Where there are historic buildings or city towns there should be a limit to the number of tourists visiting - to help persevere the work (ie walls crumbling under pressure) or simply to make living around the area livable or getting to the area a decent experience.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#106

Post by jpalomaki » Mon, Nov 19, 2018, 12:41 PM UTC

elbasti wrote: post #3

At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Pigovian taxes have been a thing for fifty years, yet they are still seldom used. It seems like such an obvious solution to me that the fact it's not used more often (ex: towns banning airbnb vs taxing it) suggests to me that I'm missing something obvious.

Very high bed tax can make "unofficial tourist accommodation" more competitive compared to official hotels and hostels. Even though regulation tries to prohibit that, tracking down the providers can be difficult.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#107

Post by yardie » Mon, Nov 19, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #103

yardie wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a small correction. Miami has a hotel bed tax, not a beach fee. I have friends and family that visit and stay with us regularly. They have never been charged to stay with me nor go to the beach. Compared to the rest of the tourist traps down here the beach is one of the best values. As for the cities of Miami and Miami Beach being solvent, LOL. Depends on who you ask. There is never enough money for the things w…

If you are staying at a hotel and want to use its beach chair, you are charged a usage tax. It's somewhere around $10.

Which I think is fair. The hotels have basically staked out a part of the public beach to put their chairs and umbrellas on, indefinitely. This takes space away from the public use.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#108

Post by dorchadas » Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

taysic wrote: post #105

pj_mukh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea isn't to put them off, that seems like a mindlessly cynical goal. Build the infrastructure to support the larger numbers. If the infrastructure needs to discriminate against tourists, that's fine too (e.g. added trains for tourists vs. commuters), new digital methods tool can allow for this.

Where there are historic buildings or city towns there should be a limit to the number of tourists visiting - to help persevere the work (ie walls crumbling under pressure) or simply to make living around the area livable or getting to the area a decent experience.

The second reason should be reason enough. People don't want to live in a town overrun with tourists. All their stores and bars and such become touristy gimmick places, cause those can charge huge markup on stuff that tourists buy and make more money. Tourists drive the locals out (AirBnB is a fairly large factor in rent prices increasing in Ireland, for instance) and make it so only tourists are in town. It's horrible.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#109

Post by dorchadas » Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 2:42 AM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #58

bobthepanda wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of it is also restricting location. Every large city has a tourist quarter that becomes devoid of everyday services for residents in favor of trinket shops and expensive, mediocre restaurants (e.g. Times Square in NYC). By introducing AirBnBs everywhere you run the risk of turning residential quarters into these dead zones. In contrast, hotels are very easy to restrict using zoning.

The promise of Airbnb (I'm not a booster though) is that if you spread out the impact, you don't have to have any dead zones.

Except it doesn't work. People buy out apartments simply to AirBnB them, meaning one less local can live there. Others get driven out due to noise, and then yet another AirBnB company comes in an snatches them up. AirBnB is a huge issue that nobody seems willing to face, imo.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#110

Post by linkregister » Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 4:56 AM UTC

yardie wrote: post #107

linkregister wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are staying at a hotel and want to use its beach chair, you are charged a usage tax. It's somewhere around $10.

Which I think is fair. The hotels have basically staked out a part of the public beach to put their chairs and umbrellas on, indefinitely. This takes space away from the public use.

I agree. The subject is tourism taxes, which the original parent poster claimed did not work. I asked for evidence and provided a direct counterexample, with no avail.