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Sales mistakes that software engineers make

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Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#101
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's no way to search "startups using x" for a generic technology, like serverless or NoSQL. Smells like a side project waiting to be built.

Search job boards for job openings that list the technology as a requirement.

Not sure that is a reliable indicator. How many times have you seen job openings that list under required experience years of Java, c++, JavaScript, angular, Java script, HTML, react, nosql, mongodb, and postgres all on the same line? The majority people writing those job ads have no idea what they're asking they just dump the list a few stakeholders gave them and these stakeholders will put anything they can think of in there, including technologies the company has used once 10 years ago for a small project that is long dead.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#102
All true. However there are also a bunch of mistakes sales people make when selling software:

Selling something that hasn't been built or planned yet. This leads to disappointed customers and/or rushed delivery of half assed features. This is easy for the sales persons to do and they tend to move on anyway before the shit hits the fan. Aldo, it's technically not their problem when the shit hits the fan.

Confusing what the customer says they want with what they actually need. This leads to wasted development effort building something that doesn't ultimately solve the customer's problem, that nobody else really wants. When sales people take charge of requirements, always question the rationale.

Giving into a big customer's demands to land a deal and thus crippling the company doing custom development for that one customer at a huge discount and at the cost of shipping value to other paying customers. I would say this is the #1 mistake in selling SAAS software. It's literally a company killer as often the customer is unhappy anyway and then cancels the deal. I've seen multiple startups get stranded doing all sorts of crap for a customer that ultimately walks away.

Listening to a customer that has not committed to paying. Before they pay, they are just haggling over details. They'll want everything you suggest and then some. After they pay, they've committed to you and then you can be reasonable about their demands. Especially in an early phase of a company everybody is interested in becoming a customer if only you were to do X, Y, And Z. You check back two weeks later they'll come up with more crap. It never ends and they may never buy something.

My recommendation is to always build an MVP and try to sell the MVP. If you can't sell the MVP, it's not viable. If it takes a long time to build it, it is not minimal. If you have no MVP you have nothing to sell. An MVP is not a click demo, it needs to be a functioning thing that delivers value to paying customers. Building it should be proportional to the amount of risk you are willing to take financially and the amount of money you are going to make if successful.

Of course definitely talk to potential customers as early as you can but don't promise anything you can't deliver.

After the MVP stage work with roadmaps and prioritize according to what is needed, feasible, and valuable. Most stuff customers want fails at least one of these tests. Most sales people are poor judges of feasibility or necessity.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#103
post #51

Are there examples of great companies that actually started selling before building the product? From Google to Facebook, all the companies that I've ever researched seems to be based on people fiddling with ideas and then quickly iterate to the direction when they start getting traction. Sure, there are crowdfunding sites or established companies selling based on CGI drawings or concept videos but this seems to be n…

Google and Facebook are moonshots by extremely talented people. I don’t know about you, but I have no close to zero chances of building something similar. It’s wiser to be realistic, find problems businesses have, understand them better than anyone else and try to solve them. EG. some dropshipping platforms don’t have integrations with some e-commerce platforms, interview dropshippers and build the ones they’d need.…

Facebook was created to solve Mark's problem of accessing a pipeline of hot girls to sleep with. It grew because while solving his problem he solved the exactly same type of problem the other people had, including the hot girls who needed a pipeline to pretty boys/jocks/nerds/etc to sleep with.

The clean product we currently know came much later.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>finding contacts on linkedin, and sending out some emails Has that ever worked? I'm not on LinkedIn, yet somehow companies still find my work email and I'm always getting emails from people about how there product is the best thing ever and can we set up a call, or there is a webinar, or can they come by. Oh, and did I not see their previous attempts to reach me? Yes, I saw them, but I've never responded to any of t…

> I just can't imagine cold-calling/emailing people actually works. I felt this way for the longest time. I hate cold calls. I hate making them, I hate recieving them. Everyone I've ever talked to claims to hate cold calls. Why do people still do this. Who the hell is buying from cold calls? So I sat down with a couple of people from a sales team, and just asked them what they did. And apparently, a good chunk of the…

And a good sales person will be one that is OK making cold calls over and over knowing that wast majority of them will be a dud.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#105
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, thank you! I think I took the "selling" word a bit too literally.

Happy this conversation helped you :) I find this topic to be really sensitive to me as I find that the first impact with the customer is always a big reality check for every idea I have. I often find myself building what “I think” people/companies want, but I think it’s healthy to try and build what they’re already willing to pay for!

Oh, it happens to me too. As techies maybe we think in the context of "Wouldn't be cool if..." and just really want to believe that it's not just cool but actually people will use it and pay for it and ignore the signs of the opposite as long as we can because it's really cool and sure people will come around and see how cool it is if I can make it shinier.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#106
post #99

I don't entirely disagree, but I've seen taking these concepts too far blow up just as often as building without input (at least in my experience). In those cases a company finally gets a customer, usually a big one(s) (everyone sees mega dollar signs and maybe they get a taste of it), and then that customer monopolizes the development demands to the point that the product and development are laser focused on the whi…

I'd say that if someone falls into that trap then they haven't really done the market research in the spirit of this strategy.

The purpose of speaking to customers first before building is to find out how much demand there is for the product and how much they're willing to pay for.

It's to find out that there is really only one company or a few that want this... before possibly wasting your time building it.

If someone knowingly goes into building a product for a single customer, then that had better been a conscious decision, knowing the ramifications of that. Be aware of it and don't let it be something that just happens.

In any case, for engineers, speaking to customers before building is not the default. So there's a strategy that they are going out of their way to adopt, for a specific purpose. So they need to do it right, not half-assed, and design the app for a large number of users with input from a good amount of people, otherwise their single main customer who will have them by the balls.

The market researcher should go into it knowing that the user cannot always list out exactly what they want. Everything the market researcher should do is purposeful, to try to discover what that thing that needs to exist really is, how big the addressable market is, and for how much money the market will bear. It's a whole strategy... And it's a better strategy than building without working with real actionable data from a sample of the actual future users.

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#107
The points are good but I think the problem with engineers trying to sell is deeper: engineers are focused in the truth while salesmen use a grayscale. Sometimes they go to the darker side and even black. The point of selling is selling! The startup community escapes this talk because it is politically incorrect but you can see the behavior in many successful companies. For example, thinkabout Microsoft negotiating/selling to IBM

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#108

The first point is often totally wrong. I worked in a place where the sales team sold the product hard before much of it was built and before it was reliable. It turned out to be way harder to build what customers actually wanted than anyone knew ahead of time. Nobody could foresee it. The only way we could have known we were egregiously over-promising in the sales pitches was to just actually start building it first…

The point isn't to finish selling before you build, the point is to start selling -- do market research -- before you build.

You use the term "investment" -- do you invest in stock market / bitcoin / real estate by buying whatever looks cool, and chalking up your losses to the learning process, or do you research your choices and look for ROI opportunities??

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#109

I fall into the "Build before talking to customers" trap constantly. Even though I know it's "wrong", it is hard to escape it because of the simple problem of not knowing who to talk to. The article suggests doing a search for potential companies, finding contacts on linkedin, and sending out some emails. But what about experimental technologies or developer tools? I wouldn't expect a lot of success with a slow movin…

This may sound overly harsh, but if you can't find 10 potential customers to ask them about whether they want your product: How will you find your first 10 real customers? It doesn't mean this is not a good product for someone to build, but it means this is a company YOU probably wouldn't be able to make successful. This is just from my experience, cause I have fallen into this trap in the past. ;)

Re: Sales mistakes that software engineers make

#110

I fall into the "Build before talking to customers" trap constantly. Even though I know it's "wrong", it is hard to escape it because of the simple problem of not knowing who to talk to. The article suggests doing a search for potential companies, finding contacts on linkedin, and sending out some emails. But what about experimental technologies or developer tools? I wouldn't expect a lot of success with a slow movin…

"it is hard to escape it because of the simple problem of not knowing who to talk to"

I think this is why the average age of entrepreneurs skews higher...because you get more experience and connections on who to talk to and what questions to ask. And this is why serial entrepreneurs succeed.

If you think of it as a software product standpoint. Once you have a team to build out the entire stack, your next software product would be easier. But the time it takes to find your UI person, backend, mobile, etc...takes time.

My inner circle of professionals are developers. If I wanted some dev resources I could. But when I meet certain people for the first time who don't know a lot of devs, they look at me like a unicorn.

My wife runs a small business/franchise. We were hoping to use that as a stepping stone for future, bigger businesses. There are lots of small business associations around us, Chamber of Commerce, etc. They would have some resources if you want to network.

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