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Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

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Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#101

Post by munchbunny »

dragonwriter wrote: post #78
munchbunny wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? In general protests involve some amount of inflicting inconvenience or pain. Google is short on interviewer bandwidth, so bottlenecking it more is certainly a way to get management to feel the pain.

It's protesting culture by forgoing an opportunity to shape it. I do see your point it this is a real resource constraint, but though.

Do you mean forgoing an opportunity to shape it through choosing who gets hired?

Google's process is engineered in such a way that individuals will not be able to individually skew cultural selection for new hires, so I don't think they would even see hiring as such an opportunity.

Or were you talking about the more classic issue of whether it's more effective to be an insider vs. an outsider to affect change?

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#102

Post by dragonwriter »

akiselev wrote: post #87
dragonwriter wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounds like there's plenty of evidence that he did - hell, they had enough evidence to record, in writing, that they found the claims against him credible. “Credible” is a far cry from being likely to meet the civil “preponderance of the evidence” standard, it literally is just “not implausible”. > The difference between him and the people that they did fire was his position. Which is entirely backwards - the pe…

Preponderance of the evidence would be the standard if Rubin sued Google for wrongful termination, not the standard for evaluating allegations against executives - the latter is entirely up to Google. Rubin would have to convince the jury that he was terminated wrongfully against Google's argument that a credible allegation against senior management is enough to terminate with cause. > Google doesn't impose criminal…

> Preponderance of the evidence would be the standard if Rubin sued Google for wrongful termination, not the standard for evaluating allegations against executives

Insofar as the issue is whether or not he is entitled to things promised in his employment contract, the standard for evaluation the allegation that he violated provisions of the contract which would trigger forfeiture of those things is necessarily ultimately the exact same standard as would apply in a suit over the contract, since whatever initial decision Google attempts to make is subject to potential suit.

> GP never suggested that Google hand out jail sentences,

The response was to the reference to “crimes” which was not otherwisegermane.

> just that they shouldn't be giving $90 million severance to Rubin when many employees who got fired for a lot less egregious behavior got nothing.

At-will employees are less protected than those with specific employment contracts; executives are usually in the latter category, rank and file employees generally not unless unionized.

Expecting treatment of employees to be the same when they are dissimilarly situated in terms of legal relationship is irrational.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#103

Post by mlindner »

gowld wrote: post #69
dragonwriter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google could have given him the 90 million but at the same time still call out his behavior. Probably not; mutual non-disparagement clauses are extremely common in executive contracts. Breaking that would have been the same, in terms of kind of litigation risk, as not paying the $90 million.

Is it disparagement to report facts without attaching an opinion?

I would say that depends on if they are indeed facts.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#104

Post by cromwellian »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #32
azhenley wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are two very different things. The cost of changing companies (especially if you are at Google) is fairly low (and often comes with a salary increase). The cost of changing citizenship could be exorbitant. People claim that if you want change in a country, you vote. If you don't believe in a company's values, you join another. Tech employees in this economy do have a lot of power. I think that is a more…

Exactly. Every single engineer at Google could get hired almost anywhere else. And many, who start their own projects could build those things outside Google as startups as well. (One of my favorite services was created by a Xoogler's startup.) In addition to that, while a walk out does not "move the needle" for executives or investors in any significant sense, if any even statistically significant number of engineer…

By contrast, there is no shortage of people willing to work for Google. If the most ethical people with the strongest moral compass leave, then they may be replaced with people who have less aversion to working on military drone contracts, or other things.

Smart people can be moral, they can also be amoral. Google can continue to execute with either. What you're suggesting could lead to a 'morality drain' equivalent to 'brain drain'

Previous internal protests have gotten Google to give up the DOD contract, and may convince them to give up on Dragonfly, without having the loudest voices -- who organize other people in the company -- from all leaving.

Leaving is a last resort protest, and often, if you get that far, you've reached a tipping point and there's no going back. You can bring economic pressure and harm to a company by striking, that's how unions work.

I see you constantly make this 'love it or leave it' suggestion on HN, but this could lead to a worsening of Google's behavior, not an improvement.

I've been in the industry since the early 90s, and have worked for several startups, as well as IBM, Oracle, and Google, and in every case, I've encountered more sexism and sexual harassment behavior elsewhere. Good lord, Oracle would take engineers to strip clubs on business trips. You're asking someone to quit a company which might be persuadable to change its behavior, and join other companies of tech-bros who don't have sexual harassment training, and often don't even have an internal mechanisms to report abuse. To what, walk out and quit again?

Sexual harassment and sexism in the tech industry is wide spread, and worse in many other companies. You can't run from it, you should organize collective action where you are and make them fire you. Quitting is the easy way out for a lot of companies.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#105

Post by leereeves »

notacoward wrote: post #98
leereeves wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When negotiation fails, unions extract concessions by trying to prevent anyone (members or not) from doing the work. Unions are rather weak when they can't prevent employers from hiring strikebreakers.

Yes, because there's an infinite supply of completely interchangeable workers, and no costs associated with hiring or training.

Yes, those are two obstacles that employers face when hiring strikebreakers, along with more significant obstacles like laws forbidding strikebreakers, licensing, and union violence.

The common factor is that it's not enough to refuse to work, unions must be able to ensure that no one does the work.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#106

Post by chewxy »

Ptyx wrote: post #89

Reminds me that Kierkegaard has written about Google: "A revolutionary age is an age of action; ours is the age of advertisement and publicity. In the present age a rebellion is, of all things, the most unthinkable. Such an expression of strength would seem ridiculous to the calculating intelligence of our times. On the other hand a political virtuoso might bring off a feat almost as remarkable. He might write a mani…

Kierkegaard has been dead for 200 years....

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#107

Post by thaumaturgy »

dragonwriter wrote: post #29
kerng wrote: post #18

Google could have given him the 90 million but at the same time still call out his behavior. But what happened was that Google only said how awesome everything is and hence in fact protected and worse, basically endorsed, his behavior. I find it good that Google employees stand up here. I'm already wondering what will Google do about that other guy who gives back rubs in interviews? He got similar support and is stil…

> Google could have given him the 90 million but at the same time still call out his behavior. Probably not; mutual non-disparagement clauses are extremely common in executive contracts. Breaking that would have been the same, in terms of kind of litigation risk, as not paying the $90 million.

And you think the mutual non-disparagement clause required Google to invest in Playground Global?

> Rubin has also pulled together a group of high-rolling financiers; the endeavor is supported by a $300 million venture capital fund, whose investors include Google, HP, Foxconn, Redpoint Ventures, and Tencent, the Chinese Internet-services company.

https://www.wired.com/2016/02/android-inventor-andy-rubin-pl...

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#108

Post by matt4077 »

Ptyx wrote: post #89

Reminds me that Kierkegaard has written about Google: "A revolutionary age is an age of action; ours is the age of advertisement and publicity. In the present age a rebellion is, of all things, the most unthinkable. Such an expression of strength would seem ridiculous to the calculating intelligence of our times. On the other hand a political virtuoso might bring off a feat almost as remarkable. He might write a mani…

If this is aiming to invoke the tired "virtue signalling" cliché, it's rather vacuous.

Kierkegaard's alternative was an armed rebellion. Are you seriously advocating for civil war, and dismissing all peaceful methods of achieving change?

That gets to the heart of what's wrong with the concept as it is used by the 4chan crowd these days: The success of democracy is exactly the possibility to effect change without shouldering grave personal risks. Trying to reframe this accomplishment as ineffective, weak, or lazy runs the danger of provoking exactly the sort of dramatic, self-sacrificing gestures that have been in the news recently.

In the specific case, maybe quitting would be slightly less dramatic but more forceful form of protest. But it's quite obvious that exists a gray area where it's perfectly legitimate to try to change an organisation, while still being convinced of its overall benefit. Recruitment & retainment are also huge factors for Google's future prospect, making a walk-out with the implied threat of quitting, an effective tool.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#109

Post by dragonwriter »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #107
dragonwriter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google could have given him the 90 million but at the same time still call out his behavior. Probably not; mutual non-disparagement clauses are extremely common in executive contracts. Breaking that would have been the same, in terms of kind of litigation risk, as not paying the $90 million.

And you think the mutual non-disparagement clause required Google to invest in Playground Global? > Rubin has also pulled together a group of high-rolling financiers; the endeavor is supported by a $300 million venture capital fund, whose investors include Google, HP, Foxconn, Redpoint Ventures, and Tencent, the Chinese Internet-services company. https://www.wired.com/2016/02/android-inventor-andy-rubin-pl...

> And you think the mutual non-disparagement clause required Google to invest in Playground Global?

Not directly.

It is a reason that he details of the separation would be tightly held, and thus may not have known to those in whatever of Google's investment subsidiaries was making the decision on that investment.

Re: Google Engineers Organizing a Walk Out to Protest the Protection of Andy Rubin

#110

Post by vkou »

tw04 wrote: post #96
asianthrowaway wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burning man guy is another guy (who still works at Google afaik). This Rubin guy was no doubt a creep. From the NYT article: "The suit included a screenshot of an August 2015 email Mr. Rubin sent to one woman. “You will be happy being taken care of,” he wrote. “Being owned is kinda like you are my property, and I can loan you to other people.”" Yikes!

>"The suit included a screenshot of an August 2015 email Mr. Rubin sent to one woman. “You will be happy being taken care of,” he wrote. “Being owned is kinda like you are my property, and I can loan you to other people.”" I don't understand why Americans are so concerned with what happens in somebody else's bedroom. I don't give a single flying f about what two consenting adults decide to do in a bedroom. There are…

> Otherwise - why do you care? It's none of your business.

When your boss is sleeping with one of your co-workers, how do you know that they are not in a quid-pro-quo relationship?

This isn't an American thing - this is a workplace thing.

If you're a manager, there's seven billion other people in the world, who don't report to you. You'll probably find your soulmate, or whatever the hell you're looking for - outside of your reporting chain.

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