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How the Finnish survive without small talk

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Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#101

Post by hrktb »

chrisseaton wrote: post #15
lasagnaphil wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Japanese clerk’s elaborate script is just an educated formality rather than a sincere conversation...

> just an educated formality rather than a sincere conversation So small talk, then.

The difference would be that it’s one sided, there is no expectation of response.

It’s so funny when sometimes the clerk has been doing it that job so long that it’s not proper words anymore and you’re not even expected to parse it correctly, it just doesn’t matter.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#102

Post by thekingofh »

hrktb wrote: post #95
thekingofh wrote: post #90

Silence is great, but there's something more to small talk than just filling silence. Small talk primes the pump for some good conversation. I can't tell you how many times I've come across great conversations and tidbits of information that I'd never have if I didn't chat up with some kind of nonsense to start the conversation. Or alternatively if someone else didn't. The initial part of the conversation is useless,…

I feel this is in the same vein as asking every girl on the street if she wants to have a drink. That definitely can be one way to meet one’s life partner. But it’s so grating from the other side, even if the request is very polite and non pushy. Some people live for the human contact, others don’t want any. Honestly it’s a PITA when the social norm puts an obligation to respond, even briefly, to not seem rude. If it…

This is true if you are running into people on such a basis that it becomes cumbersome. It may be a cultural/geographical thing, where in the US there's ton's of space and in some areas, especially rural ones where you see more small talk, it's possible that you don't see anyone for days at a time, which means you run into your neighbor and the small talk is a way to prime up a conversation. The more dense the population the more cumbersome this type of behavior becomes. The larger the countryside, the more likely the people are going to be using small talk to break the ice.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#103

Post by Bartweiss »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #25

It is strange that this article sees Finland as an odd man out in terms of customer-service interactions, and it suggests the USA or the UK is the norm. I have lived in both southern Europe (where people are claimed to be more extrovert) and in Finland, and generally interacting with a "barista" or cashier in both places is exactly the same, consisting of only the words "Hello" and "Thanks". In the USA one might get…

I think the other side of this is that using the USA as the far end of the scale is a mistake. A quick trip through much of Latin America, or for that matter the US Midwest, makes clear that the UK and coastal USA still do quite a bit less talking to strangers than other cultures. And by that standard, the stereotypically extroverted parts of Europe (e.g. Italy) are downright reserved.

For some reason, I do find the US standard more facile than either of the poles. Taciturn cultures like the Finns have obvious authenticity because people talk for reasons, but very high interaction cultures have their own sort of sincerity: people talking idly because they're enjoying the act of conversation. Trading a few sentences as pure courtesy misses both marks, and often feels more draining than a much longer conversation.

(Now I wonder if this is tied to US tipping and sales cultures, since "act blandly nice" becomes an important transaction for a lot of people. Obviously it's not the whole story, but I do find even UK conversation rather different than the US pattern.)

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#104

Post by jsilvers »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #58

I'd be definitely more interested in an article on "How US/UK survive with small talk".

It's funny because often the stories about small talk in the US center on how vapid it is. People ask, "how are you," and most people are conditioned to say, "good, thanks" (or some variant) and leave it at that. Then you're trained to say, "and how are you?" and often it's the same reply. Then it's onto the weather, news, sports, or other topics. Despite that it's formulaic, as an American, it's comforting and within the norm.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#105

Post by raffael-vogler »

> “Laura,” she told me matter-of-factly when I asked why we had bonded so quickly, “The Finnish don’t believe in talking bullshit.”

I believe this is characterizing the sentiment of the article much better than what the title conveys. In my experience there are different types of small talk. The infamous kind found in the US is not the only definition of small talk. In many cultures small talk simply means talking without getting too personal - in the US this seems to be accomplished by exchanging what the Finnish girl refers to as "bullshit".

> With two million saunas in the country, which are enjoyed fully nude (generally gender-segregated, although that rule tends to be thrown out in the company of friends), the Finnish seem to have no problem with getting up close and personal. But when clothes are on, the bets are off.

Also an exaggeration in my experience. You can very well talk to strangers in Finland. Just that talking too shallow stuff is maybe not that popular.

> Thanks to television and films (which are mostly broadcast in English) she was already acquainted with non-Finnish communication styles.

That is such a dumb and sad thing to say. I really love the downtoearth friendliness of Finnish people. There is really no need to educate them - and certainly not by means of television.

> When asked for an example of how she wishes Finnish society were more open,

Now we go from talking less to a claim that Finnish society should be more open. It couldn't be further from the truth. If you have been to Helsinki you will have noticed that the society is super open and embracing refugees as well as people with handicaps. Almost everything is accessible to blind people or those using a wheelchair.

> There are more hypotheses than answers for why Finnish culture has a veil of silence permanently stitched in place.

And that is a good thing. Silence and the ability to maintain silence when there is no need for attention seeking behavior is such an important thing. It's awesome.

> “When I was [back] in Finland, I was almost offended when I went to get a cup of coffee from a coffee shop and they didn’t say anything,” he recalled. “It was just ‘what do you want?’. How can you say that? Are you not going to ask anything before that? Oh, yeah. This is my home country. This is just the way things are.

That is just half of the truth. They just won't pretend to be your super-nice new friend like it can be observed in Starbucks for example. But they will be actually very friendly.

In no country I have been treated consistently exceptionally friendly by customer serive in shops or bars than in Finland / Helskinki. It's absolutely stunning how authentically friendly Finnish people are.

---

I would rather tend to label typical Finnish communication as "healthy" - and there is a simple reason for it being like that. Finnish society itself is super healthy - just take a day-trip to Helsinki and you will feel it immediatly that Finland is doing something very right with regards to equality in the society and presence of culture.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#106

Post by lucozade »

dingaling wrote: post #65
illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

How do Finns flirt without smalltalk? Just jump straight to 'do you find me attractive?' and 'do you want to date?' Though admittedly I used to work with an Irish guy whose sole chat-up line was 'are ye ridin?' and who had considerable success.

Entirely anecdotal but my one experience of Finnish "flirting" consisted of telling fairly rude stories over a large bottle of vodka at the kitchen table (at the house we were both lodging in).

When I felt it was time for bed, we both went upstairs. I went to go to my room, on my own, and she said "no, we'll use my room". Or words to that effect. At no point, up till then, had it occurred to me there was anything between us. Just friends getting drunk.

No idea if this is typical but it was a very pleasant surprise to my teenage self.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#107

Post by raffael-vogler »

illuminati1911 wrote: post #7

(I’m a Finn) I didn’t know what small talk was until I went to study abroad. Most of my foreign classmates often asked me things like ”how are you doing?” etc. and when I literally answered them what I had been up to recently they were very confused. ”Dude...no need to tell your life story, just say ’good’ and that’s it” I replied ”Why do you ask a question if you don’t care about the answer?” I learned the hard way,…

I think that what you describe as doing is definitely small talk. It's just not the dumbed-down type expected by many people in the US or some anglo saxon societies. Also the message of the article is actually contradicting your observation b/c it insinuates that Finnish people pretty much don't talk in such situations - which you did. And I hope you can unlearn again b/c as a German I really prefer people with your take on conversing! Those people should rather learn from you.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#108

Post by swebs »

jpatokal wrote: post #6
throwaway487548 wrote: post #3

Oh, come on. Most parts of Asia have no notion of a small talk, moreover, it is considered impolite and sometimes even silly. Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm, and you see, it is OK for a few billions or so.

> Only almost formal, exceedingly polite and necessary conversations are part of the social norm This does not describe Finland at all. If you go to a convenience store in Japan and buy a pack of gum, the clerk will go through an elaborate script of welcoming you to the store, reciting how much your purchase costs, how much cash they receive from you, how much change they give you in return, and thanking you for your…

Cashiers almost always say hi to you in Finland. Then they list the price, then usually ask if you want a receipt, then say thanks. It's pretty rare for them to deviate from the script.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#109

Post by farrisbris »

SilasX wrote: post #99

Random thought: I can't find it, so how do they translate the intro to Return of the Jedi? Moff Jerjerrod: Lord Vader. This is an unexpected pleasure. We are honored by your presence. Darth Vader: You may dispense with the pleasantries, Commander. I am here to put you back on schedule. Is Jerjerrod's line something they wouldn't say? Would it be confusing that someone would need to tell someone to skip the pleasantri…

Can't remember either, but your recollection is close to what mine is.

But given that Moff knows who/what Darth Vader is it is not supprising that he takes a subservient stance when talking to him. Kind of the same way i'm very careful around american cops. I would never address a norwegian cop by sir, but i don't even think twice before using sir/mam when talking to a us cop.

But in these cases its fear. It has nothing to do with pleasentries. It's the gun in the holster or the knowledge that he can forcechoke you if he wants to. ( at least thats my interpretation of that encounter in rotj ).

So no. I don't think they would say that in any normal encounter. I know i wouldn't other than in jest.

Re: How the Finnish survive without small talk

#110

Post by Bartweiss »

redblacktree wrote: post #75
bluetomcat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Customer-service interactions as they are in the US are not popular and are considered obtrusive even in more extrovert cultures such as southern and eastern Europe. Small talk there generally takes place between colleagues and friends.

As a customer, I'm not exactly interested in small talk, and I know that the service person isn't either, but I walk a fine line. Because I care about people as people, I want get the message across, "I see you. I know you're a real person and not a robot. Thank you for being here to help me get my lunch today." I think non-verbal communication goes a long way with this. (for the opposite effect, I see people order w…

Years ago, someone pointed out to me that we tend to hustle through courtesy interactions faster than we really need to, which leads to tropes like "Have a nice flight!" "You too!" Since then, I've made an effort to reduce the number of those interactions, but spend a bit more focus on them. I've been surprised - consciously considering what I mean when I say 'thank you' apparently changes the delivery enough that people react visibly differently to it.

(It's tougher with phone calls, especially when some customer service rep is clearly being recorded and under orders to follow a script; I don't really know what to do there except explicitly say "I know this isn't your fault and you don't have a choice, but I don't want any of what you're offering.")

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