United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments • Hacker News Board

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#101

Post by grimjack00 » Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

ben1040 wrote: post #11

Sometimes I go to a fast food restaurant and discover that while I don't want fries, it's cheaper to buy the whole combo meal than it is to just buy a burger and drink a la carte. If I buy the combo and throw away the fries, nobody's going to argue that I've cheated Wendy's and owe them for the difference in price. But I'd agree they're still free to refuse me service in the future on grounds of wasting food.

Another fast-food scenario:

I want a Big Mac, 2 cheeseburgers, a soft drink and fries. Using prices from https://www.fastfoodmenuprices.com/mcdonalds-prices/ , I have two options: a) Big Mac meal ($5.99) + 2 cheeseburgers ($2.00) = $7.99 or b) 2 cheeseburger meal ($4.89) + Big Mac ($3.99) = $8.88

If I order option a, McDonalds "loses" $0.89. Am I committing fraud?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#102

Post by johnm1019 » Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 11:10 PM UTC

otterley wrote: post #93

Someone1234 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have a legal citation for this? I'm unaware of any law that supports this assertion. One could argue the same about every post you've made on this topic thus far. You're arguing that simply the act of buying something is a representation, which can then result in misrespections ala fraud, but you've provided no legal citations and the one citation you have provided was about contractual agreements which aren…

The reason I'm not citing anything is because there's nothing to cite. The (mis)representation in this case is crystal clear : "I want to fly to city B."

I completely disagree it's crystal clear.

How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? If I buy a can of spray-paint, the store has no idea if I am using it to paint my child's bicycle, tag graffiti, use it as a weapon and hit someone on the head, or as part of a wonderful "Rube Goldberg" device which at the end an implement hits the sprayhead which sprays through a bright white light as part of performance art.

Another example, a true story: yesterday I visited an ice cream store with my friend. She wanted a scoop with chocolate sauce, and I wanted just a scoop. 1 scoop was 4.29+tax. A 3 scoop sundae with chocolate, nuts, and strawberry-sauce was 7.98+tax. Even though we only wanted 2 scoops we got the sundae because it was cheaper and scooped the strawberry-sauce off and into the trash (crazy I know, we don't like it). Did we defraud the ice cream store?

People buy "more than they need" all the time, and purchasing a good provides no intent as to what one wants or how they wish to use it.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#103

Post by kazinator » Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 11:13 PM UTC

otterley wrote: post #76

kazinator wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the recompense be? They hold you hostage until you eat all the fucking fries they paid you to eat?

The difference in price.

So, "No, you can't have that to go: we're gonna watch you either eat the fries you were paid $0.25 to eat, or else ask you to return the $0.25."

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#104

Post by oh_sigh » Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 11:43 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #7

I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Plus they're outright wrong that it constitutes "fraud," if for no other reason than the person skipping additional legs didn't profit from it, instead they simply limited UA's ability to further profit off of their travel. If this was "fraud" then any other airline discount or saving would be too. Shop around for the cheapest pric…

I wonder if they could structure this as a real debt, by making some legs cost negative money, e.g. on a trip from A->B->C, A->B costs $100, B->C costs -$10, for a total cost of $90. If you book A->B->C and prepay the $90, but get off at B, then you owe the airline $10 because you didn't receive the $10 credit from flying B->C

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#105

Post by otterley » Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 11:49 PM UTC

johnm1019 wrote: post #102

otterley wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I'm not citing anything is because there's nothing to cite. The (mis)representation in this case is crystal clear : "I want to fly to city B."

I completely disagree it's crystal clear. How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? If I buy a can of spray-paint, the store has no idea if I am using it to paint my child's bicycle, tag graffiti, use it as a weapon and hit someone on the head, or as part of a wonderful "Rube Goldberg" device which at the end an implement hits the sprayhead which sprays through a bright white light as part of…

Facts and circumstances matter; not every case is comparable. In the specific case of buying airplane tickets, it’s reasonable for a carrier to infer intent to travel to a particular destination from the user’s input.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#106

Post by otterley » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:30 AM UTC

otterley wrote: post #63

cft wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I order a meal at McDonald's and don't eat the fries, is that fraud, because the cost of a burger plus soda separately maybe more than the meal with a burger, soda and the fries?

Technically yes, but the injury is de minimis so McDonald's isn't likely to demand recompense in this situation.

Correcting myself here: this particular example isn’t fraudulent. You asked for something that was being offered, you paid the asking price, and you got it. They’d sell it to you whether you intend to eat the fries or not. They don’t care. So there’s no misrepresentation and no reliance. Those elements aren’t met, so no fraud occurs.

Services can be different than goods in this regard. In the airline example, the seller prices flights differently for different destinations. When you indicate an intent to fly to city B by requesting a ticket with that destination, and the airline offers you a ticket whose destination is the one you asked for, their offer is made in reliance on your stated intent. So if you intentionally abandon your trip sooner, you reveal your true intent: to fly to city C. And if the price for flying to city C was higher, then you deprived the seller of a benefit they’d otherwise have had because they wouldn’t have sold you the ticket for the same price had you revealed your true intent at the start of the transaction.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#107

Post by mnm1 » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 12:41 AM UTC

So if I buy a regular ticket and don't make the flight, by this reasoning that's fraud too? Are they going to send me to collections to get paid twice for missing my flight? Seems pretty ridiculous to me as I see literally no difference between the two scenarios.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#108

Post by lordlimecat » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 1:02 AM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #7

I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Plus they're outright wrong that it constitutes "fraud," if for no other reason than the person skipping additional legs didn't profit from it, instead they simply limited UA's ability to further profit off of their travel. If this was "fraud" then any other airline discount or saving would be too. Shop around for the cheapest pric…

UA is specifically claiming they violated the contract of carriage, which may (IANAL!) be enough for them to prove damages.

>UA's creative use of the law

You mean "use of contract", assuming they're correct that it violates the contract of carriage (too lazy to check).

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#109

Post by lordlimecat » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 1:07 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #84

otterley wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Purchasing a good or service with multiple components is not, in and of itself, a representation to the seller of intent to use all the components. Do you have a legal citation for this? I'm unaware of any law that supports this assertion. In any event, the representation in question is "I want to fly from city A to city B." It's pretty reasonable for an airline to conclude that when a passenger makes this request,…

> Do you have a legal citation for this? As far as I am aware, no one has actually attempted to make a fraud claim on the grounds that mere purchase (and/or the statement of intent to purchase) a composite good or service was a representation by the buyer to the seller of intent to use every portion of the good or service so sold and had the case survive to a published decision on that question. But, you know, if you…

To purchase the ticket you agree to the contract of carriage, which explicitly disallows hidden-city ticketing in section 6, subsection J, paragraph 1. See here: https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/contract-of-carriage.ht...

So when you agree to use the ticket to travel all the way to the final destination, I think that qualifies as a "representation... of intent to use every portion of the good".

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#110

Post by lordlimecat » Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 1:10 AM UTC

johnm1019 wrote: post #102

otterley wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I'm not citing anything is because there's nothing to cite. The (mis)representation in this case is crystal clear : "I want to fly to city B."

I completely disagree it's crystal clear. How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? If I buy a can of spray-paint, the store has no idea if I am using it to paint my child's bicycle, tag graffiti, use it as a weapon and hit someone on the head, or as part of a wonderful "Rube Goldberg" device which at the end an implement hits the sprayhead which sprays through a bright white light as part of…

>How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes?

Because when you buy a united ticket you agree to a contract of carriage that specifically says you will use the ticket in its entirety.