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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

euractiv.com

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#101

Post by GeneralMayhem »

reacharavindh wrote: post #80
jimmaswell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

I wrote the comment you responded to. I live in Denmark, and here is my take on this. It's not as extreme that I'd call it "extremist state of affairs". Fewer cars are for the greater good. However, what pisses me the most is how it is really implemented. There is the famous 150% tax when you buy a car, and then there is a green tax every 6 months/quarter that is based on how efficient &a safe your car is. I'm all fo…

>people tend to keep shitty cars much longer than rational, because they cannot afford a better car - throwing away all the emission savings

Keeping an older car rather than buying a new one is often the more environmentally sound decision, because it takes a very long time for improved efficiency to break even on the massive environmental investment of manufacturing the new car.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#102

Post by lsiunsuex »

floatrock wrote: post #92
mrguyorama wrote: post #73

As an idealist I'm glad to see the world transition away from fossil fuels in any capacity. As a "Car Guy" however, there is a small sadness that I won't really get to experience much of the internal combustion engine. I feel like I was born a decade too late and a lot too poor. Similar to some techies who feel the missed the early internet.

Why the sadness? As a "Car Guy" I'm thrilled about electric! Instant torque and acceleration, way more responsive than ICE. Just the other month there was the story where an electric shattered all the previous Pikes Peak records: https://www.teslarati.com/vw-id-r-electric-vehicle-pikes-pea... I mean, yeah, it doesn't have the same growl, but if you want raw performance, I'll take my spaceship whirl over rube goldberg…

the growl / sound / smell. The ability to modify, upgrade, "wrench on a car on the weekend"

the ability to get beat on the track 1 weekend, drop a couple grand on new parts the next, then go back and beat them the following weekend.

car shows and seeing a super charged mustang or camaro or twin turbos or something completely different someone came up with an idea for and built.

the same way us programmers tinker and build stuff for the hell of it, is the same was us car guys build stuff and tinker for the hell of it. some take it seriously and go to track, some (me) just do it cause it's a nice break.

spending a day installing a new exhaust can be fun. playing with 240volts of batteries (or whatever it is, lol) (if theres anything to play with) - not so much i'm thinking, lol...

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#103

Post by eanzenberg »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #85
PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

Send yourself back in time to when less than 1% of the populace is using petrol cars to get around. In that timeframe of the early 1900's, it would've been incredibly hard to get around the rural areas as well, since they'd still be dominated by horse, foot, and perhaps bicycle traffic. Now, send yourself forward 100 years: it will be nearly impossible to use petrol-powered transport, and EV will be the standard. Say…

That's cool, I'd like to avoid 1900 era death-rates lul.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#104

Post by mattlondon »

Annatar wrote: post #86
ainiriand wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the solution is to provide more charging stations, isn't it? Looks pretty straightforward to me.

Very straightforward. Now, who's going to foot that bill?

Same people who footed the bill for petrol/gas stations?

I.e. commercial operators who want to sell you coffee/snacks/flowers/other high-markup items as well as fuel/energy. Added bonus for EV: longer dwell time while waiting for a fast-charge means more likely to spend spend spend (perhaps)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#105

Post by kalms »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #62
martin_bech wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that EVs are fully taxed the danish 150% car tax (on top og the danish 25% sales tax) but get a discount of about 50.000 DKK or just under 8.000USD.. For a base Tesla Model S, that would mean a tax of about 120.000 USD..

What's the current tax on a base Tesla Model S?

20% I believe

https://www.tesla.com/da_DK/support/incentives (Danish)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#106

Post by sjwright »

reacharavindh wrote: post #80
jimmaswell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

I wrote the comment you responded to. I live in Denmark, and here is my take on this. It's not as extreme that I'd call it "extremist state of affairs". Fewer cars are for the greater good. However, what pisses me the most is how it is really implemented. There is the famous 150% tax when you buy a car, and then there is a green tax every 6 months/quarter that is based on how efficient &a safe your car is. I'm all fo…

> they cannot afford a better car - throwing away all the emission savings

Buying a new car for proportionally lower emissions is a false economy as much of the carbon footprint of a car is in its manufacture, not just its use. Holding onto older cars that aren't offensively inefficient (e.g. any small hatchback) seems environmentally responsible to me.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#107

Post by jillesvangurp »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #58
PopeDotNinja wrote: post #26

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

Is this not enough charging stations? https://i.imgur.com/dd9Jdzf.png (Orange are high power chargers, green are lower power chargers, source is plugshare.com)

And that's not counting people's own charging points at home. Most people will rarely need a public one as they can probably do several of their daily commutes on a single charge.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#108

Post by Annatar »

tomp wrote: post #66
maxsilver wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid "Just 1 mile of electric range" is true for most hybrids that don't plug into to charge (from Ford, Chevy, Toyota, etc). Obviously more miles would be even better, but this isn't a terrible thing on it's own. The base non-plug-in Toyota Prius Hybrid has had "just 1 mile of electr…

> that hasn't stopped it from getting 50mpg ratings Is this the "50mpg under ideal laboratory conditions driven by an AI" or "as driven in a real city/highway by a human"?

I get 49 MPG in mixed mode driving on a Euro III emissions compliant diesel every day. Newer diesels are even more efficient. And I don't spare the accelerator either.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#109

Post by apcragg »

ben_w wrote: post #89
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't cost much (far less than a gas equivalent) and can be installed alongside highways within weeks. If people purchase EV _en masse_, they'll have charging stations everywhere. There's no egg/chicken problem here.

Worldwide, transport energy use is about 150% total electricity use — 30PWh/y vs. 20PWh/y. I’m not saying we can’t upgrade production (I’m actually significantly more optimistic than the best case IAE estimates), but it’s not as trivial as just installing some new wires and transformers.

I'm curious, is that only non-point-to-point personal transportation or does it include all forms (e.g. ocean shipping, rail, public transport)?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#110

Post by ashleyn »

eanzenberg wrote: post #99
netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

Unfortunately, production of cars (and consumerism in general) is extremely bad for carbon emissions and for the environment. Carbon emissions from the production of 1 car generally rival the lifetime emissions from the tailpipe [1]. If you have no choice but to replace an old car for new then sure, get a more efficient one. If you're replacing cars every 3 years like an average westerner, given the age of cars I see…

Ironically, a big reason people buy new cars is because their old one failed emissions screening, and wasn't economical to repair.
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