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How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

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Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#101

Post by lotsofpulp »

api wrote: post #93
lotsofpulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might makes right, and you can only take someone to task if you have the power to do so. The US (or at least owners of equity in the US) are too dependent on the cheap labor and lax environmental rules of China, otherwise there is no reason for the most powerful country in the world to let another country take "advantage" of them.

China is equally dependent on foreign infusions of capital. The real issue I think is that labor arbitrage has been very good for upper income and wealthy Americans. Corporations and the rich have gotten much richer by shipping labor off to China and paying less for it and pocketing the difference. That's largely why there has been no political will to challenge this situation.

I find it funny that it's also the previous generations' middle class' 401(k)s and pensions that need the investment returns provided by cheap chinese labor and lax environmental rules, while at the same time ruining the future for their descendants.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#102

Post by zeroname »

mc32 wrote: post #57

Well, at least the cat’s out of the bag and the media aren’t pretending it doesn’t exist or that people are exaggerating, etc. Of course now people are going to normalize it and say it’s no big deal after years of saying it was an exaggeration. But that’s what you get when you get blinded by the lure of 1-billion potential consumers... along with an unfavorable trade agreement wich allowed for assymetrical tariffs, e…

> ...unfavorable trade agreement wich allowed for assymetrical tariffs, etc.

Assymmetrical tariffs are more favorable than symmetrical tariffs, something practically every economist agrees on. Also, why insist on exporting more valuable goods to China, when China remains perfectly content with green pieces of paper instead?

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#103

Post by seanmcdirmid »

anon92612 wrote: post #92
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can place a bit more blame on the US companies that let it happen. This is one aspect of Chinese culture that I’ll never understand. For example, if you get cheated, it’s your fault for being lax/trusting/stupid enough to get cheated. The immorality is on the victim, which makes for some extremely paranoid business relationships when working in China. How is that beneficial in the long term? Why doesn’t such a…

At least in the US, you have to be cheated a second time for it to be your fault.

Ya, in China the saying goes "trick me once, shame on me."

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#104

Post by weberc2 »

chillacy wrote: post #48
weberc2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no contradiction; the standards in the 1800s were much lower across the globe. These standards are no longer acceptible today.

By whose standard? It’s awfully convenient for the United States to reap the benefits of “lower standards” and then shut the gates after they no longer need those lower standards.

Global standards have improved since the 1800s. Lots of countries condemn things they once practiced. Slavery, genocide, pollution, and colonialism are all things that most prominent countries have participated in to some extent but now rightly condemn. This is the basic recipe for progress and it's a good thing.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#105

Post by seanmcdirmid »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #78
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can place a bit more blame on the US companies that let it happen. This is one aspect of Chinese culture that I’ll never understand. For example, if you get cheated, it’s your fault for being lax/trusting/stupid enough to get cheated. The immorality is on the victim, which makes for some extremely paranoid business relationships when working in China. How is that beneficial in the long term? Why doesn’t such a…

> The immorality is on the victim, Does Chinese culture actually shift moral blame onto the victim? If not, then this sounds a bit like the "victim blaming" obsession of modern American culture, which misses the crucial point - there are two types of blame to be passed around here. The offender was evil - they cheated. The victim was stupid - they were aware of the danger and ignored it.

Its more like just by simply doing business in China the victim should have been aware of the danger. There is no negative karma for doing scams, cheating, or stealing IP, only for being scammed, cheated, or having IP stolen.

It isn't really victim blaming, more like your business partner comes back to you and says "Why did you let me cheat you? This is all your fault."

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#106

Post by alehul »

ng12 wrote: post #87
natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

Part of the problem is expansion into China is a hot take for stockholders. It's difficult to stand in front of a board and say "no, we will never expand into China".

It's also essentially game theory; the first defectors (those entering the Chinese market) will seize most of the reward.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#107

Post by mc32 »

zeroname wrote: post #102
mc32 wrote: post #57

Well, at least the cat’s out of the bag and the media aren’t pretending it doesn’t exist or that people are exaggerating, etc. Of course now people are going to normalize it and say it’s no big deal after years of saying it was an exaggeration. But that’s what you get when you get blinded by the lure of 1-billion potential consumers... along with an unfavorable trade agreement wich allowed for assymetrical tariffs, e…

> ...unfavorable trade agreement wich allowed for assymetrical tariffs, etc. Assymmetrical tariffs are more favorable than symmetrical tariffs, something practically every economist agrees on. Also, why insist on exporting more valuable goods to China, when China remains perfectly content with green pieces of paper instead?

So unfathomably China is against an inverse assymetrical tariff regime which on paper would benefit US but economists would insist actually would counterintuitively benefit China.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#109

Post by AnimalMuppet »

aurailious wrote: post #19
reaperducer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Isn't this "whataboutism"? You shut down a conversation by trying to deflect about how others have also done something? Like you said, two wrongs don't make a right. Just by pointing out this has happened elsewhere doesn't make the conversation about China doing it any less important or relevant. Why shut down this conversation?

There's two parts here. Yes, China's doing it, and we shouldn't ignore it, and we need to condemn it and figure out how to respond. That's on one level.

On another level, though, any country that has more to gain by stealing than to lose by being stolen from is going to be tempted to steal. Given what human nature is, you'd better expect it to happen.

It's like how in domestic society, on one level we expect people to obey the law. But on another level we expect at least some people not to, which is why we have police.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#110

Post by AnimalMuppet »

chillacy wrote: post #58
aurailious wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this "whataboutism"? You shut down a conversation by trying to deflect about how others have also done something? Like you said, two wrongs don't make a right. Just by pointing out this has happened elsewhere doesn't make the conversation about China doing it any less important or relevant. Why shut down this conversation?

To call what we call “IP infringement” as wrong presumes IP monopolies are right, and that there’s no objective reason why it’s so . In the US patent law doesn’t cover everything, there are alternate forms of IP like copyright which has let open source software and fashion thrive. Then there’s the open hardware system in China called GongKai: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141230/09362929550/how-g...

All right, but if China has signed international IP agreements, it is reasonable to expect them to keep their word.

[See my other comment for how to interpret "expect", though...]

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