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Brave files adtech complaint against Google

reuters.com

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Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#101

Post by jordigh »

jonathansampson wrote: post #54
martindale wrote: post #14

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

> This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done.

Yeah, find some other way to make money than ads.

Whenever you tell me that I have to watch ads for the good of capitalism, I feel a horrible contradiction in my gut. I don't want ads at all.

It's like everyone has wasps and needs their wasps to get into my car and some businesses promise me that their wasps aren't so bad, so can I please roll down my windows so a few wasps get through? Honest, these are good wasps. You won't mind these wasps too much.

People don't want ads. Ads are inherently adversarial. They interrupt, they manipulate, they intrude, they try to provoke a need in you that you didn't have before you watched the ad. The conversation has to be about how do we do better than ads, not how do we do better ads.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#102

Post by jonathansampson »

downandout wrote: post #92
jonathansampson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

We do this by using local machine-learning to understand the user better, and making local decisions as to which ads should or should not be shown I pitched almost this same idea to Netscape in 1997. I managed to get a physical meeting with a fairly high level person, but was essentially laughed out the door. It’s interesting that you have a pool of users that have embraced this idea. Netscape - at the time the world…

As you may or may not know, we have a handful of Netscape alumni working on the Brave project today :) Glad to meet another hacker from the original browser wars!

One thing that gives our users great comfort is the fact that this is an optional component. As it's baseline, Brave blocks ads and trackers. If you don't want to see them, you stick with the default, out of the box experience.

But advertising is what keeps the web open and free-to-low-cost for the masses. Walled gardens and paid subscriptions ad a high degree of friction to the industry; to much friction and you'll melt the system. Ads are a better route, for now. But ads, as we have come to know them online, are suffering greatly.

Brave's model gives the user the power to decide whether or not they participate, and to what degree. As for client-side machine learning, I suspect users today will understand the benefits better than we would have 20 years ago. In fact, Tim Cook praised the iPhone and Apple Watch for utilizing similar features (using similar terminology).

Another difference between users today and users in the early-to-mid 90's is the lived experience. In the 90's, as a Netscape user myself, I had little concern about invasive ads and trackers. Sure, we had web bugs, but not anywhere on the scale of what we have today. Today, our attention is being harvested for the profit of others. This limited commodity is being sold around every corner, and everybody but me is getting a cut.

With Brave Ads, users who opt-in to the new experience will make as much as 70% of the ad revenue (70% goes to ad-slot owner, which is the user in the case of browser-private ads). Now, you're able to enjoy the benefits of high-quality ads, the liberty of being private and secure online, and a portion of the revenues themselves.

I'd love to know more about what you pitched, from a historical perspective. I always love an inside story :)

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#103

Post by quotemstr »

jonathansampson wrote: post #54
martindale wrote: post #14

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

So you're replacing ads with other ads, and you have reasons. Everyone who makes money has reasons why his profit is in reality some kind of selfless social good. It's what it takes to reconcile human psychology with capitalism.

You're still replacing ads with other ads.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#104

Post by legatus »

fixermark wrote: post #39
legatus wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask what the amount of money that can be made has to do with this? First of all: they make a case against a particular type of advertising, not all of them. While I honestly believe an argument can be made against any type of advertisement, that's not what they're doing. Second: if an industry is based on immoral practices, what do we care if they make a lot of money? It's like saying "we should not go against…

Human weighting of incentive signals differs. "We should not go against slavery, it's an $X billions industry" isn't precisely how the US South thought about the problem, but ultimately they did go to war because they recognized that chnage in the status quo would bring utter economic ruin to a powerful sector of the populace with the political and social clout to goad the rest into war. So yeah, "That industry makes…

Absolutely agree it gives an idea of what we're fighting. What I wanted to point out is that, whether or not they make a lot of money off of it, this fact should have no consequences on whether we allow it or not.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#106

Post by jonathansampson »

jordigh wrote: post #101
jonathansampson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

> This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Yeah, find some other way to make money than ads. Whenever you tell me that I have to watch ads for the good of capitalism, I feel a horrible contradiction in my gut. I don't want ads at all. It's like everyone has wasps and needs their wasps to get into my car and some businesses promise me that their wasps aren't so bad, so can I please roll dow…

All sensible points. But you're missing some key points about the Brave Ads proposal. For starters, it's entirely optional. If you don't want ads, you don't get ads. You must opt into this system to see any ads.

Secondly, for those who opt in, they decide how often they'll see an ad. And unlike annoying interstitial ads and more, Brave Ads begin outside of the browser as a system notification. If you wish to see the ad, click the toast. If you don't, simply dismiss or ignore it.

As for the desire to see ads, many users (myself included) don't mind this. In fact, I enjoy high-quality ads that don't require me to give up personal information. I'd love to know about a sale at my favorite store, gift ideas for my wife's birthday, and more. The problem is, to get this today, I have to hand over too much to Google and Facebook. Unacceptable.

With Brave's on-device machine-learning, you hand over nothing. Ads are proposed to your device, and your device choosing what you might like to see. And you, as always, remain in complete control. Should you decide to see an ad, you'll even get paid for your attention (70% of the revenue in user-private cases).

But the baseline is always the same; if you don't wish to see Brave Ads, Brave won't show you Brave Ads. That's our promise to you.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#107

Post by CobrastanJorji »

jordigh wrote: post #101
jonathansampson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

> This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Yeah, find some other way to make money than ads. Whenever you tell me that I have to watch ads for the good of capitalism, I feel a horrible contradiction in my gut. I don't want ads at all. It's like everyone has wasps and needs their wasps to get into my car and some businesses promise me that their wasps aren't so bad, so can I please roll dow…

Let's say bees. "I see the problem is bees in your car. We would like to solve this by filling your car with different, quieter bees. In exchange for this, we are willing to give you some of the honey."

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#108

Post by quotemstr »

jordigh wrote: post #101
jonathansampson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

> This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Yeah, find some other way to make money than ads. Whenever you tell me that I have to watch ads for the good of capitalism, I feel a horrible contradiction in my gut. I don't want ads at all. It's like everyone has wasps and needs their wasps to get into my car and some businesses promise me that their wasps aren't so bad, so can I please roll dow…

When a site advertises to support itself, it's entering a consensual and mutually beneficial relationship with visitors: readers give up a sliver of their attention and in exchange get otherwise-free content.

Are you suggesting that we make it illegal to enter into this kind of consensual and mutually beneficial business arrangement?

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#109

Post by clear_dg »

Drdrdrq wrote: post #10
_xgw wrote: post #3

This comes at the same time that Malwarebytes starts flagging Brave as malware[1]. [1] https://twitter.com/lukesawczak/status/1039854898068815873

That has nothing to do with Brave, it's just another failure of antivirus / antimalware approach. Nothing new. EDIT: not sure why they prefer blacklisting to whitelisting, anyone know the reasons?

Here is my take on it: with blacklisting, each update brings tons of new patches/signatures. It proves to users that the devs of their security suite are hard at work, and it's a neverending race. So all in all, a very good strategy for the AV industry.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#110

Post by jonathansampson »

quotemstr wrote: post #103
jonathansampson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

So you're replacing ads with other ads, and you have reasons. Everyone who makes money has reasons why his profit is in reality some kind of selfless social good. It's what it takes to reconcile human psychology with capitalism. You're still replacing ads with other ads.

This is like scoffing at dialysis as nothing more than replacing blood with blood. The system is suffering at the hands of innumerable bad-actors who commit fraud, abuse, and more. Users and Publishers alike are both suffering.

The users have already responded en masse with the explosive growth of ad and tracker blocking software. We acknowledge the necessity for this move, as the industry has become overrun with parasites. But we also recognize that bloodletting isn't the solution; bleeding the publishers of their revenue isn't the solution.

Brave introduced Brave Payments as a means of supporting content creators. We're staking users with $500k/mo to support their favorite sites. But this isn't a short-term solution while we work on the long-term solution of reforming digital advertising.

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