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Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

reuters.com

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Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#101

Post by buzzert »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #47
hal9000xp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scary thing is that while living in Russia, I've encountered many people with similar views (face to face). I know it's hard to believe for western people but there are lots of people in Russia who completely obsessed with ideas of "unique Russian identity", "God chosen nation", "Russian world", "saint Russia vs. soulless American imperialism" etc. Putin understands feelings of this part of society and successful…

The solution, it would seem, is to help those who want to emigrate emigrate and let those who want to stay stay, and let the country slowly die on the vine.

Have you seen the population graphs for Russia[0] vs the USA[1]? It seems like one of the only developed countries (besides Japan) with a decreasing population. Seems like that is happening already.

[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+russia

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+usa

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#102

Post by cameldrv »

If I were in Russia, I wouldn't count on Telegram to keep my communications secure. Too many aspects of the story don't make sense. There are only so many proxies Telegram has, and Russia can just block them all, like China has. That, plus some big questions about Durov and Telegram itself make me question whether Telegram is just the Russian security services pumping an app that people think is secure from them and that they'll speak freely on.

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#103

Post by sctb »

throwaway99990 wrote: post #12

I emigrated 15 years ago from there to the US. It's been fine, but I just visited Russia recently for a month and very much prefer Russian culture to that of the West. I'm thinking of going back permanently but probably won't. I think blocking various internet sites/services is the only way to preserve the cultural differences and stop the brain drain.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17886695.

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#104

Post by frostburg »

azangru wrote: post #83
frostburg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're exactly arguing from from a legalistic perspective.

I am alternating between two perspectives: one is that of an internet user who was caught in a fight between a company and an enforcement agency; the other is that of a disinterested observer. This other position tells me that if we disregard for a moment that Telegram is a tech company championing privacy (and therefore a protagonist in most retellings of the story) and the Russian government is an embodiment of thu…

One should be criticized, because it's propaganda for being a coward.

I'm going there and saying that this is exactly the logic that nazi apologists use to blame SS reprisals against civilians on resistance fighters.

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#105

Post by azangru »

frostburg wrote: post #104
azangru wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am alternating between two perspectives: one is that of an internet user who was caught in a fight between a company and an enforcement agency; the other is that of a disinterested observer. This other position tells me that if we disregard for a moment that Telegram is a tech company championing privacy (and therefore a protagonist in most retellings of the story) and the Russian government is an embodiment of thu…

One should be criticized, because it's propaganda for being a coward. I'm going there and saying that this is exactly the logic that nazi apologists use to blame SS reprisals against civilians on resistance fighters.

> I'm going there and saying that this is exactly the logic that nazi apologists use to blame SS reprisals against civilians on resistance fighters.

Sigh. You could have pointed at collective punishments that were practiced in schools (some students misbehave, the whole class is punished), or in the military (the whole platoon is punished for the actions of an individual), but no, you would rather invoke the Godwin’s law and drag the Nazis into discussion.

In any case, it’s not even a fair analogy with my example. My example was about collateral damage happening as a result of baiting the authorities; yours is about deliberate hostage-taking.

As for "propaganda for being a coward", well, to each their own. Call Joseph Heller ("Catch-22") or Terry Pratchett (novels featuring Rincewind) propagandists of cowardice then.

(And it is not even a story about heroism or cowardice. Telegram is not being a hero here; it's not as if it is risking anything by defying the Russian government — it is well outside of reach of the Russian law enforcers.)

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#106

Post by codedokode »

jammygit wrote: post #95
codedokode wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal or Keybase are not blocked in Russia. I suppose that is because they don't have many users like Telegram. WhatsApp is known to comply with Russian legislation (and ironically several of its addresses were accidentally blocked while trying to disrupt Telegram service).

How does Telegram differ from Signal from an end-user point of view?

I haven't used Signal, so I don't know much about it. I know that Telegram has native clients for multiple platforms (real apps, not HTML/JS apps). For example, its Windows client is written in Qt and works on Windows XP. It is also very realiable and works good even on bad mobile connections.

Telegram has channels - it is like a microblog where the owner can post messages and images, and everybody else can only read them.

And in Russia Telegram is well known (unlike Signal) because its founder (Durov) is also a founder of social network VK.

Judging by screenshots, Telegram and Signal UI look similar (well, almost every IM app looks the same).

As I understand Signal, as Telegram, requires a phone number for registration and therefore doesn't provide much privacy (the government can easily track your location and identify you). I wouldn't give a real phone number to any of them.

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#107

Post by frostburg »

azangru wrote: post #105
frostburg wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One should be criticized, because it's propaganda for being a coward. I'm going there and saying that this is exactly the logic that nazi apologists use to blame SS reprisals against civilians on resistance fighters.

> I'm going there and saying that this is exactly the logic that nazi apologists use to blame SS reprisals against civilians on resistance fighters. Sigh. You could have pointed at collective punishments that were practiced in schools (some students misbehave, the whole class is punished), or in the military (the whole platoon is punished for the actions of an individual), but no, you would rather invoke the Godwin’s…

Ignoring the fact that you're talking about a government that uses nerve agents on targets in foreign countries, the distinction you're making is spurious (if the collateral damage is predictable even for the other party, it's hostage-taking, if it's not predictable obviously it cannot be taken into account) and even if we doubt the motives of the Telegram people calling not submitting to censure and spying "baiting" as if the issue was morally neutral is dishonest.

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#108

Post by azangru »

frostburg wrote: post #107
azangru wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm going there and saying that this is exactly the logic that nazi apologists use to blame SS reprisals against civilians on resistance fighters. Sigh. You could have pointed at collective punishments that were practiced in schools (some students misbehave, the whole class is punished), or in the military (the whole platoon is punished for the actions of an individual), but no, you would rather invoke the Godwin’s…

Ignoring the fact that you're talking about a government that uses nerve agents on targets in foreign countries, the distinction you're making is spurious (if the collateral damage is predictable even for the other party, it's hostage-taking, if it's not predictable obviously it cannot be taken into account) and even if we doubt the motives of the Telegram people calling not submitting to censure and spying "baiting"…

How did we get here? :-) From the discussion of whether it's preferable to move away from a country that is demanding of you what you are not willing to give, or to ignore the official orders and bet on the country’s inability to enforce their ban — to Nazis — and then to “a government that uses nerve agents on targets in foreign countries” (at least you could have said "radioactive substances", referring to the case for which the inquiry has been held and for which the factual basis is pretty well known, instead of the case about which very little information has been shared with the public), within just a couple of posts?

By leaving the Russian market Telegram wouldn’t have submitted to censorship and spying. They wouldn't have collaborated with the Russian special services. They would have kept their integrity. Much as what LinkedIn did when the Russians demanded they keep the information about the Russian citizens on the Russian soil and LinkedIn refused. It could all have been peaceful and quiet and dignified.

And the problem of privacy vs censorship and spying is by no means limited to Russia. It will resurface in the progressive world. It will be interesting to see what the reaction will be then.

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#109

Post by mushka »

azangru wrote: post #23

I am Russian, and I do not use Telegram, I and do not really know the technology that it relies on, so my opinion is probably worthless, but I can't get rid of the feeling that if Telegram just left the scene quietly and peacefully when the Russian authorities announced the ban, things would have been much simpler and yes, better. The authorities would have pretended that their mission had been accomplished. People w…

Your arguments reminds me of Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter.

Re: Russia tries more precise technology to block Telegram messenger

#110

Post by frostburg »

azangru wrote: post #108
frostburg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the fact that you're talking about a government that uses nerve agents on targets in foreign countries, the distinction you're making is spurious (if the collateral damage is predictable even for the other party, it's hostage-taking, if it's not predictable obviously it cannot be taken into account) and even if we doubt the motives of the Telegram people calling not submitting to censure and spying "baiting"…

How did we get here? :-) From the discussion of whether it's preferable to move away from a country that is demanding of you what you are not willing to give, or to ignore the official orders and bet on the country’s inability to enforce their ban — to Nazis — and then to “a government that uses nerve agents on targets in foreign countries” (at least you could have said "radioactive substances", referring to the case…

We got there because the arguments that you're using have the same structure. Why should Telegram make it easy for the Russian government? Having them actually look incompetent and oppressive is a bonus.
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