I know why rejection emails suck – I write them • Hacker News Board

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#101

Post by michaelt » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #40

When someone can’t answer an interview question about relational databases, it might be that they don’t know anything about relational databases. I thought you all were better than this. Why are you asking questions about relational databases? Why not just have candidates accomplish the thing you're assessing with an actual relational database ? I know you're work-sample-literate! But if your feedback emphasizes comm…

  Why not just have candidates accomplish the thing you're
  assessing with an actual relational database?

My employer interviews like this, and I can tell you one reason it's not very common: It's a pain in the ass.

After all, it'd be unfair to judge someone on a platform they weren't familiar with - so now you gotta maintain a fleet of laptops with a really wide range of tools. And these have to sorta float outside the usual IT management system because they aren't really issued to a single person, and you gotta be online enough that people can google stuff, and you can't have hiring managers let other people use their login, that'd be bad security practice. And if you didn't confirm in advance what platform the candidate wanted to be tested on, you gotta haul three laptops to the interview. Oh, they're pretty good developer laptops and one went missing? We really ought to have people sign those out...

And even after that, you _still_ have to apply subjective measures like "were their variable names clear?" and judge them on communication - like if they see an opportunity to refactor the code for clarity, but they say they're focusing on completing the task before spending time on that.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do this, just that I can understand why many companies don't.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#102

Post by mikeleeorg » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

When I was a hiring manager, I used to always include a personal note that included suggestions and constructive criticism for the candidate. In a couple of cases, those people replied to me, demonstrated some actions towards those goals, and I hired them later, when I had more available positions.

And those that I didn't hire, I encountered them at other companies. It was flattering to hear them say they remembered me and had a positive impression of our recruiting process, even though they were rejected.

I've always believed that the recruiting process is a great way to sell one's company. Even if the candidate isn't a good match, that candidate may recommend peers to the role if they have a positive experience with you.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#103

Post by werbel » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

lixtra wrote: post #93

werbel wrote: post #70

If you/your company doesn't have a policy of sending personal feedback please consider doing this at least for junior people. Volunteer your after work time if needed. Trying to find the first job is extremely stressful process. A junior person has no notion of his worth on the market. Each rejection even if only by a lack of any response ("I'm sorry, I'm afraid we are looking for a bit more experienced person" would…

Our HR asked me to personally call people and thank them for their declined application. But at the same time requested to not give any feedback because of fear from litigation. Sad world.

If someone told me that in my country (or maybe just outside US) I would simply not believe them at first. It might just be the choice of companies I've worked with though.

It is sad indeed.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#104

Post by qaq » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #63

tptacek wrote: post #40

When someone can’t answer an interview question about relational databases, it might be that they don’t know anything about relational databases. I thought you all were better than this. Why are you asking questions about relational databases? Why not just have candidates accomplish the thing you're assessing with an actual relational database ? I know you're work-sample-literate! But if your feedback emphasizes comm…

I have been doing mysql database type things for 15 years solid. Once during a job interview at digg.com, someone [ok ok doxx removed] asked: "what is a having statement in sql?". I jumped in explained how you can filter aggregated sets performed by a 'group by' and rambled on and on. He stopped me and said, "You can use a having statement without a group by, are you sure you know how they work." I have never seen th…

honestly who cares? there is no sane reason to use having without group by.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#105

Post by FLUX-YOU » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #97

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they come to me for basic stuff, I tell them to go research it on their own. I'm not going to regurgitate wikipedia if they haven't put in some effort. At some point, we need to start demanding basic technical competence from the people around software developers. Otherwise, people will just be interrupting you all day and how much have we collectively written about that problem?

If they come to me for basic stuff, I tell them to go research it on their own. I'm not going to regurgitate wikipedia if they haven't put in some effort. And that’s why developers don’t get ahead.... There are basically “three levers of power” in an organization - relationship, expert, and role in that order. The developer who knows how to build relationships is the one that doesn’t get his silly bug put on blast by…

That's just silly, you can build relationships in other ways.

If you want to be the go-to guy/gal that gets constantly interrupted with this sort of stuff, your time won't be respected.

Plus, you're teaching them to go research things on their own. Why is that a bad thing?

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#106

Post by sixdimensional » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

Perhaps I'm being too broad but I think that rejection emails suck because generally, as a society, we aren't valuing communication or we don't think we can afford the time for actual feedback.

It triggers one of those "how much better would the world be" feelings, if more people took more time to give each other genuine feedback. I mean, maybe giving good feedback (for candidates that took time to apply and clearly made effort) could help people learn, it might even ultimately address unemployment, homelessness, or other root cause problems.

I understand the legal concerns - and there would be candidates who would exploit the process of genuine feedback as well - but I think it would serve to help people more than it would hurt. It does require time and resources, so organizations / institutions would have to look at it as a sort of a social benefit cost or something. But I do wonder how much good it might really do.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#107

Post by mcguire » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

Insanity wrote: post #3

At least you get a response even if it is a rejection letter. I have heard - not experienced - that sometimes you just don't hear back from the company at all, which seems worse to me.

I'm still waiting to hear from SouthWest Research Institute. I interviewed there in 1990.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#108

Post by cm2187 » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

Actually this is in my opinion the main advantage of headhunters. They will typically call the recruiter after the interview and seek feedback. And it is easier to provide feedback to the headhunter than to the interviewee directly.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#109

Post by fermienrico » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

mikeleeorg wrote: post #102

When I was a hiring manager, I used to always include a personal note that included suggestions and constructive criticism for the candidate. In a couple of cases, those people replied to me, demonstrated some actions towards those goals, and I hired them later, when I had more available positions. And those that I didn't hire, I encountered them at other companies. It was flattering to hear them say they remembered…

I appreciate people like you but unfortunately most companies' policy mandates not talking about the reasons due to some sort of legal risk of law suit.

Re: I know why rejection emails suck – I write them

#110

Post by paulie_a » Mon, Aug 27, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

lixtra wrote: post #93

werbel wrote: post #70

If you/your company doesn't have a policy of sending personal feedback please consider doing this at least for junior people. Volunteer your after work time if needed. Trying to find the first job is extremely stressful process. A junior person has no notion of his worth on the market. Each rejection even if only by a lack of any response ("I'm sorry, I'm afraid we are looking for a bit more experienced person" would…

Our HR asked me to personally call people and thank them for their declined application. But at the same time requested to not give any feedback because of fear from litigation. Sad world.

I would have simply ignored that HR person and given honest but polite feedback.