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Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

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Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#101
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone can find a way to make a product near-indistinguishable from meat without raising and killing animals, it would be a massive victory for the environment (meat production is CO2-intensive), for the cause of bringing decent food to poor people, and for reducing animal suffering. I'm all for reducing animal suffering (especially from CAFOs) but replacing meat with plants isn't necessarily a victory for the…

" I have to believe that the political vegetarians haven’t thought it through." Most farm animals don't live on green pastures but get their food from the big monocultures you are writing about. It would be much more efficient to eat the plants straight instead of feeding them to animals to get their meat. Either you haven't thought your points through or the facts you are working with are wrong.

> It would be much more efficient to eat the plants straight instead of feeding them to animals to get their meat.

The problem is although plants have nutrients, most of them are inaccessible to the human digestion system.

Cellulose = indigestible fiber, yet forms the bulk of the structural component of green plants. C6H10O5, a polysaccharide which would be very valuable if we could use it. The most abundant organic polymer on earth. But we can't eat grass; or we can try, it is non-toxic but no nutrients to speak of will be acquired from chewing and swallowing it.

Grasslands cover about 30% of the earth's surface (more before the rise of agriculture), an abundant resource which cannot be ignored. So how can we derive nutrition from it?

Ruminants have found an answer: bacteria. More specifically, 200 trillion bacteria, 4 billion protozoans, millions of yeast and fungi present in the rumen of a cow, the first of the cow's two stomachs. The cow can't directly digest grass either, but the contents of her rumen can do it for her, then she absorbs the output.

This large complicated digestive system however is very expensive. Is there a more efficient mechanism of acquiring nutrients? Fortunately, early primates discovered a way. "Eating meat led to smaller stomachs, bigger brains" (Harvard Gazette, 2008). Encephalization, the 3rd stage that led humans to civilization (1st: terrestriality, going down from the trees, 2nd: bipedalism), trading off a larger brain for a smaller gut:

> But growing brain size presented a metabolic problem. A gram of brain tissue takes 20 times more energy to grow and maintain than a gram of tissue from the kidney, heart, or liver, she said. Gut tissue is metabolically expensive too — so as brains grew gut sizes shrank.

> It’s likely that meat eating “made it possible for humans to evolve a larger brain size,” said Aiello. Early human ancestors probably consumed more animal foods — termites and small mammals – than the 2 percent of carnivorous caloric intake associated with chimpanzees.

There are quite a few essential nutrients not present in plants. Of those that are, they are often less bioavailable or are found along side anti-nutrients. I'll mention just one: docosahexaenoic acid, an essential omega-3 fatty acid important for normal brain function. Has been with us for a while, Michael A. Crawford calls it "nutritional armor in evolution", and curiously it is photosensitive; photoreceptor cells contains high levels of DHA.

The human body can make DHA itself (being an essential nutrient after all, you would hope so), by converting from ALA, but this process is inefficient so vegetarians often have lower levels of DHA than meat-eaters. Apparently it is also found in microalgaes so some vegetarians supplement. But what else are they missing? What are they missing that we don't even know about yet?

An example of an anti-nutrient in plants: phytic acid in legumes, interfering with the absorption of iron, zinc, and calcium. Some plant foods do contain iron, but it is less easily absorbed than the type of iron only found in meat: heme-iron. This makes vegetarians especially women more prone to anemia. I've even heard of women who stopped having their periods after a vegan diet for many years, which promptly resumed when eating meat. Other animals with larger stomachs are more equipped at processing these substances in plants than humans.

Granted there are other mechanisms for unlocking the nutrients caged away in plants. The Aztecs invented grinding corn soaked in limewater, now known as nixtamalization, to increase nutritional value (converting bound niacin to free nicin, helping prevent pellagra) and decrease mycotoxins. But having ruminants eat grass, which humans then in turn eat in the form of meat and milk, is a very efficient and effective process.

This process repeats itself in other systems: for example, small crustaceans/plankton eaten by feeder fish like herrings, eaten by larger fish like salmon, eaten by mammals like bears. The "Food Chain".

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#102
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. Smoking used to be considered healthy, leeches were healthy, letting blood was how you got over sickness, drinking a mercury-based concoction was once thought to be an elixir of immortality. Maybe coffee is good, maybe it's bad. Maybe wine is good, maybe it's bad. How often are diets shown to not do the things they are supposed to? Humans are wrong about nutrition (and health) a…

http://web.uconn.edu/mcbstaff/graf/Medical.html Leeches actually are valid medical science. There just were not better alternatives at the time, and they sometimes can still be used today.

While leeches have an actual medical use, historical usage of leeches was cargo culting and not science.

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#103
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you seriously comparing smoking and bloodletting to a veggie burger? What sort of insanity is this Maybe HN has jumped ship and I need to simply move on.

Generalizing the sanity of an entire platform based on one post that you personally find shocking seems a bit extreme, don't you think?

On the contrary! These sort of absurd reductions of logic from people with no business pretending to be experts(e.g. comparing a veggie burger to smoking or blood letting) appear to be very much par for the course here.

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#104
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with trying to replace meat. Is the unknowns about why we survived as carnivores for thousands upon thousands of years and our current obsession to suddenly play god with a food supply. We don’t know what we don’t know. And impossible doesn’t know why there would be side effects. Or they do and you’ll not know. Buy grass fed organic meat and eat less of it. We already eat too much.

Given the choice, I'd rather we play God a little more with weird foods and a little less with the futures of billions of people who will be driven from their homes of much worse by climate change.

Semantic nit: not "playing God" with the "billions who will be driven from their homes" would mean leaving them to that fate.

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#105
post #8

They're baking up soy hemoglobin in yeast and purifying it to add to non-meat burgers. This is particularly neat considering how complex the human heme synthetic pathway is. I suspect even in soy, it's more than just producing a "pre-(a-)"protein-- you'd have to make a few other enzymes along the heme synthetic pathway and provide an environment conducive to them working. It does make me wonder, why soy? Corn and ric…

I’m not an expert, but I know that soy is used as a nitrogen replacing plant during crop rotation. So it’s possible that the cost of soy is lower than rice or corn, as it’s an off cycle replenishing plant. Jan 2018 cost per ton: Soy: 405 Corn: 155 Rice: 442 Well! There goes that idea! Is the US corn subsidy the reason it’s so much cheaper?

Maybe a part of the price difference can be explained by the fact that corn (maize) uses the C4 photosynthesis vs the less efficient C3 used by soy and rice.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/C4_carbon_fixation#Plants_th...

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone can find a way to make a product near-indistinguishable from meat without raising and killing animals, it would be a massive victory for the environment (meat production is CO2-intensive), for the cause of bringing decent food to poor people, and for reducing animal suffering. I'm all for reducing animal suffering (especially from CAFOs) but replacing meat with plants isn't necessarily a victory for the…

What do you think the animals are being fed exactly...?

I regret butchering the paraphrasing in my previous reply to you, this is I believe the most powerful point (at least the most convincing to me personally) so I want to make sure it is clearly communicated as possible, quoting another ex-vegan:

> Start with Africa seven million years ago, because that’s where human life began. The climate, the creation of our ancestors—our beloved kin of bacteria, fungi, and plants—eased from wet to dry. The trees gave way to grasses and a tide of savannas rippled across the world. Cradled in the grasses were large herbivores. Twenty-five million years ago, in the exuberance of evolution, a few plants tried growing from their bases instead of their tips. Grazing would not kill these plants; quite the opposite. It would encourage them by stimulating root growth. All plants want nitrogen and predigested nutrients, and ruminants could provide those to the grasses as they grazed. This is why, unlike other plants, grasses contain no toxins or chemical repellents, no mechanical deterrents like thorns or spines to discourage animals. Grasses want to be grazed. It was grass that created cows; human “domestication” was, in comparison, just the tiniest tug on the bovine genome, and cows tugged back with the lactose tolerance gene.

- Lierre Keith, _The Vegetarian Myth_: Chapter 4, Nutritional Vegetarians, pg. 139

Put another way, the grass depends on the cows as much as the cows depend on the grass. A symbiotic interdependence.

If the implied argument is to instead of eating animals that eat plants, to eat their plants directly, in the spirit of "refuting the central point" in Paul Graham's hierarchy, I responded in depth to @maxxxxx elsewhere in this thread who made the same point, but long story short humans cannot digest the grass which cows (naturally) eat. I definitely wouldn't advocate for grain-feeding, it is indefensible, but even grain-finished cows eat grass. Through the marvel of the rumen, indigestible (to us) cellulose is turned into delicious meat, milk, and (to grass) fertilizer.

Pastured grassfed beef does not depend on industrial agriculture/grain farming (corn, wheat, soy, etc.), and is in fact directly opposed to it. Instead of disrupting ecosystems by planting rows and rows of monocultures, grasslands of clover, millet, bluegrass, plantain timothy, sweet grass, fescue, etc. are sustainably nurtured by ruminants. Working with nature, instead of against it.

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#107
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal isn't just to have a "veggie burger bleed", it's to replicate the experience of eating meat. Perhaps they have failed so far (according to your taste test), but the goal is valid. If someone can find a way to make a product near-indistinguishable from meat without raising and killing animals, it would be a massive victory for the environment (meat production is CO2-intensive), for the cause of bringing decen…

> If someone can find a way to make a product near-indistinguishable from meat without raising and killing animals, it would be a massive victory for the environment (meat production is CO2-intensive), for the cause of bringing decent food to poor people, and for reducing animal suffering. I'm all for reducing animal suffering (especially from CAFOs) but replacing meat with plants isn't necessarily a victory for the…

How much food per hectare can you get out of ruminants sustainably grazing on grassland?

The table here indicates that beef yields 2.2 g/m^2 of protein, soybeans 40 g/m^2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edible_protein_per_unit_area_o...

Perhaps animal protein should get a quality factor bonus over vegetable protein. But even if it's twice as good as vegetable protein, that's still a much lower yield of effective-protein-per-acre. Is it enough for everyone?

If people should be eating 60 grams of animal protein per day[1], and beef yields 2.2 grams/m^2/year, that's

60 * 365 / 2.2 = 9954 m^2 per person, or almost exactly one hectare.

0.9954 ha * 7.4 billion people = 74 million km^2 of pasture land required. According to the FAO, as of 2011 the world's total land used for agriculture was 49 million km^2.

It looks like feeding everyone from beef grazing on grassland would require claiming significantly more of the planet's surface for agriculture. That makes intuitive sense too -- if grazing animals produced as much food per unit area as fertilized and irrigated plants tended with machines, farmers wouldn't have bought the fertilizers, irrigation, or machines in the first place.

[1] You might set this number higher, since in other comments you have supported a low-carb, high-meat diet.

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#108
post #14

I don't get the point of having a veggie burger bleed. I tried an Impossible Burger a while ago and didn't find it that great. It doesn't taste like real meat and is just an average veggie burger. I think it's more of a gimmick.

So I'm coming at this from the perspective of somebody that has been vegetarian for about a decade or so. I agree the bleeding bit seems pretty gimmicky, but if it helps convince non-vegetarians to give it shot it might make sense. Otherwise, I rather disagree with your post. It's certainly one of the better veggie burgers that, to me, tastes quite a bit like real meat. The Beyond Burger, which is in the same niche a…

Morningstar Farms have such good buffalo wings that I prefer them over the real thing. Their burger patties aren't all great, but the black bean ones were impressively tasty.

Re: Impossible Burgers’ key, bloody ingredient gets long awaited nod from FDA

#109
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people don't care if it's meat or vegetables as long as it looks and tastes like meat to them. So the goal could be to reduce harm to the environment by reducing the amount of animals being farmed for meat. Not necessarily get rid of all animal farming just reduce it. There is a lot of waste in the meat industry in the US and Canada. Many countries all over the world eat all the animal but in the US and Canada y…

I always assumed the unpopular meat parts got turned into hot dogs, sausages or something like that. Am I wrong?

I dont know but I'd say that's just people trying their best to discredit the industry. The only part that would be non-meat is the casing if it's a natural casing.
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