Thank you HN • Hacker News Board

Re: Thank you HN

#101

Post by mikorym » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:10 AM UTC

For everyone here on the running bandwagon, I would like to add my 2 cents.

I generally do not encourage people to exercise, at least not like I once did. Exercise I think is one of those things where discussion never is anything like the real thing. This discourages a lot of people.

I would generally recommend something like social soccer, since there is a more balanced support structure imho. I used to easily run a 20 km jog on a Saturday, but this serves no purpose to mention other than to seem competitive.

For me, exercise is not an easy fix. It is one thing of many, which can greatly enrich one's life. Something like being into music can be on par with exercising, especially if one is unlikely to be able to exercise, whether because of mood or physical barriers.

But having some sort of encouragement, whether exercise, music or intellectual or otherwise engaging pursuits is key to me to become a happier person. Dark days in and of themselves are not necessarily a burden. In some way I would paraphrase this: "more life, not more effort". Being more relaxed towards life has been a strong motivator for me.

Re: Thank you HN

#102

Post by another-cuppa » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:22 AM UTC

mikorym wrote: post #101

For everyone here on the running bandwagon, I would like to add my 2 cents. I generally do not encourage people to exercise, at least not like I once did. Exercise I think is one of those things where discussion never is anything like the real thing. This discourages a lot of people. I would generally recommend something like social soccer, since there is a more balanced support structure imho. I used to easily run a…

I see what you mean. You can't just tell people to exercise. There needs to be a structure and purpose behind it. What worked for me is building strength using bodyweight resistance training at home. I followed a program and I had goals.

But I think you're wrong that music and other intellectual activities do the same thing as exercising. You can't fix the brain by thinking about it. It needs the right external inputs.

Re: Thank you HN

#103

Post by DanBC » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:24 AM UTC

another-cuppa wrote: post #102

mikorym wrote: post #101

For everyone here on the running bandwagon, I would like to add my 2 cents. I generally do not encourage people to exercise, at least not like I once did. Exercise I think is one of those things where discussion never is anything like the real thing. This discourages a lot of people. I would generally recommend something like social soccer, since there is a more balanced support structure imho. I used to easily run a…

I see what you mean. You can't just tell people to exercise. There needs to be a structure and purpose behind it. What worked for me is building strength using bodyweight resistance training at home. I followed a program and I had goals. But I think you're wrong that music and other intellectual activities do the same thing as exercising. You can't fix the brain by thinking about it. It needs the right external input…

> You can't fix the brain by thinking about it.

So far we know that CBT will work for about 50% - 60% of the people who try it.

We know that as a treatment for depression it's hard to tell the difference between doing exercise or doing nothing.

So, yes, if you think about it in the correct evidence based way you're more likely to treat depression than if you exercise.

Re: Thank you HN

#104

Post by joekrill » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

mikorym wrote: post #101

For everyone here on the running bandwagon, I would like to add my 2 cents. I generally do not encourage people to exercise, at least not like I once did. Exercise I think is one of those things where discussion never is anything like the real thing. This discourages a lot of people. I would generally recommend something like social soccer, since there is a more balanced support structure imho. I used to easily run a…

I know you mean well, but this is not good advice. The benefits of exercise are so vast and varied, and study after study has confirmed not only the physical benefits, but the mental benefits as well. To compare it to listening to music or some other "engaging pursuits" is just completely wrong.

Is it hard to start exercising? Sure. I imagine it's hard to do a lot of things initially, especially when someone is depressed. To steer folks away from doing something that could really help in a very significant way is a huge disservice.

Re: Thank you HN

#105

Post by trifidpaw » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:26 AM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #100

dgudkov wrote: post #44

>...and started working out I can't emphasize enough how much this helps. If anyone is suffering from depressions, anxiety and overthinking -- consider starting working out. It will make wonders to your mood. I'm not saying that it will fix your suffering entirely, because it typically requires a mental effort as well. But it will make your life noticeably more enjoyable.

> I can't emphasize enough how much this helps. If anyone is suffering from depressions, anxiety and overthinking -- consider starting working out. Agreed, but recently I've started mindfulness and this also helps with these symptoms.

Can't agree more, exercise and mindfulness are very effective.

I don't think they'll fix whatever underlying cause may be there, but they may help to put you in a position where you can.

Re: Thank you HN

#106

Post by DanBC » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:27 AM UTC

dgudkov wrote: post #44

>...and started working out I can't emphasize enough how much this helps. If anyone is suffering from depressions, anxiety and overthinking -- consider starting working out. It will make wonders to your mood. I'm not saying that it will fix your suffering entirely, because it typically requires a mental effort as well. But it will make your life noticeably more enjoyable.

All the evidence we have tells us that people exercise because their illness has reduced.

We know that exercise has minimal benefits as a treatment for depression.

We should be pushing people towards evidence based treatments, not suggesting they spend considerabe effort doing something that probably won't work, and will increase their negative feelings when they fail.

Re: Thank you HN

#107

Post by DanBC » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:28 AM UTC

braythwayt wrote: post #62

Speaking as someone who has lived through dark days myself... I want to point out that we know that exercise helps with moods. The data is there. That being said, mood disorders are like autoimmune diseases of the emotions. Feeling blue or anxious or clinically depressed makes it harder to work out. And if you don't, you can easily beat yourself up for not "fixing yourself." On the other side of the fence, lots of pe…

> I want to point out that we know that exercise helps with moods. The data is there.

No, we really don't. We don't even have evidence that exercise is better than doing nothing.

Re: Thank you HN

#108

Post by DanBC » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:29 AM UTC

mpodlasin wrote: post #82

braythwayt wrote: post #62

Speaking as someone who has lived through dark days myself... I want to point out that we know that exercise helps with moods. The data is there. That being said, mood disorders are like autoimmune diseases of the emotions. Feeling blue or anxious or clinically depressed makes it harder to work out. And if you don't, you can easily beat yourself up for not "fixing yourself." On the other side of the fence, lots of pe…

This is said so often and yet for me personally gym helps only very temporarily - just after workout I feel great, but the next day anxiety might kick-in again.

The research we have says exercise is moderately better than doing nothing, unless you only include good quality research in which case the benefit is harder to see.

https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr...

Re: Thank you HN

#109

Post by DanBC » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

joekrill wrote: post #104

mikorym wrote: post #101

For everyone here on the running bandwagon, I would like to add my 2 cents. I generally do not encourage people to exercise, at least not like I once did. Exercise I think is one of those things where discussion never is anything like the real thing. This discourages a lot of people. I would generally recommend something like social soccer, since there is a more balanced support structure imho. I used to easily run a…

I know you mean well, but this is not good advice. The benefits of exercise are so vast and varied, and study after study has confirmed not only the physical benefits, but the mental benefits as well. To compare it to listening to music or some other "engaging pursuits" is just completely wrong. Is it hard to start exercising? Sure. I imagine it's hard to do a lot of things initially, especially when someone is depre…

?> and study after study has confirmed not only the physical benefits, but the mental benefits as well.

No they have not. Well run meta analysis fail to find any benefit of exercise as a treatment for depression.

https://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depr...

All these studies fail to account for the relapsing / remitting nature of depression in many people; they don't establish any causal link (are people better because they exercise, or are they exercising because they're better?), the blinding is lousy, the controls are lousy, etc etc.

As soon as you run a well controlled properly blinded study you find very little effect for exercise as a treatment for depression.

Re: Thank you HN

#110

Post by mikorym » Mon, Aug 13, 2018, 9:37 AM UTC

joekrill wrote: post #104

mikorym wrote: post #101

For everyone here on the running bandwagon, I would like to add my 2 cents. I generally do not encourage people to exercise, at least not like I once did. Exercise I think is one of those things where discussion never is anything like the real thing. This discourages a lot of people. I would generally recommend something like social soccer, since there is a more balanced support structure imho. I used to easily run a…

I know you mean well, but this is not good advice. The benefits of exercise are so vast and varied, and study after study has confirmed not only the physical benefits, but the mental benefits as well. To compare it to listening to music or some other "engaging pursuits" is just completely wrong. Is it hard to start exercising? Sure. I imagine it's hard to do a lot of things initially, especially when someone is depre…

Not listening to music—playing music. That is, playing an instrument, composition, or musical dev of sorts.

What I am saying is that the exercising community is somewhat patronising imho. For me, having been very fit from a young age becomes a burden when it is difficult to keep up form later. I think this sentiment may be unclear for people who start exercising seriously later in life rather than early.

I am not downplaying running. Running is perhaps what people evolved to do, and I concede that point happily. For many people, however, running is not an option or is not the first step towards a better mind space.