Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021 • Hacker News Board

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#101

Post by Shivetya » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:01 AM UTC

prh8 wrote: post #59

With how bad the air quality is, I'd be really curious about what would happen if all of the region's public transit was made free. TRAX can be packed quite often, but there's still so much more capacity available in the system. Traffic is so bad, pretty much all the time, so it would have to help that as well. But then there is the matter of money has to come from somewhere, although Utah has one of the richer state…

free transit has been tried, the findings were that it got mostly new riders from those who walked or rode bicycles because they didn't want to pay for transit but converted very few drivers. [1]

it really comes down to, a transit system cannot be everything for everyone so its best to make it good for a segment of the population. if we want to improve transit issues the primary method is to overhaul the power of zoning boards and reduce the ability of groups to sue to prevent housing to be built closer in if not inside cities.

one recent tactic has been for politically connected groups to sue and make ridiculous changing demands so that to the point it becomes unaffordable to build and force the developer to sell to the group connected to the politicians. then everyone loses. [2].

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/why-can...

[2] https://missionlocal.org/2018/07/axis-developerment-abruptly...

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#102

Post by krapp » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:03 AM UTC

matthewwiese wrote: post #63

dredmorbius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of other features generally included in the definition of cults. Isolation, absolute authority, leader-worship, shunning of defectors, and other elements among them. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult#Warning_signs_of_a_potent...

I agree with you that it's uncharitable to call Christianity a cult when there are more obviously perverse religious/New Age groups that better align with the definition (at least for the sake of debate). However, I'm sure if you asked an LGBTQ person of their experiences with Christianity, especially with the uniquely conservative U.S. evangelical variety, they would say that some of those qualities clearly fit the…

I didn't intend to imply that Christianity is a cult now, but that it was as far as Jews and the Romans of the time were concerned. It wasn't even the only group at the time following a self-proclaimed messiah.

In the same way it's said that a language is "a dialect with an army", I'm claiming the difference between a cult and religion is the same.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#103

Post by sschueller » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:10 AM UTC

conroy wrote: post #12

As usual, this looks like a half-baked implementation of BRT. They get many things right, including articulated buses, off-vehicle ticket purchase, and raised platforms. However, like most BRT systems in the US, it fails on the most important metric: dedicated lanes. Only half of the route is in exclusive lanes, which means the half the time buses will be fighting traffic. Instead, we should be aiming to build more B…

Yes, this is even an issue in places where there is good public transit like Zürich, Switzerland. There are sections where buses share the road and during rush hour it causes the busses to be off schedule. There is even talk to remove the fixed schedule for buses as this happens so frequently.

Sadly a new law passed that forbids the removal of roads in order to provide more dedicated bus lanes. As there is so little place it will be impossible in most places. However buses are sharing light rail space now as well which can be paved yet not allow regular traffic in it.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#104

Post by komali2 » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:17 AM UTC

billiam wrote: post #42

reaperducer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of Christians talk a big game about charity and such. But once I started becoming familiar with LDS folk, I was really impressed. They’re Christians in ways many other denominations only claim to be. KSL-TV (LDS-owned NBC station) has an AppleTV app, and watching the SLC local news is far more interesting than I thought it would be. And there’s far less needless murder and mayhem plus more “good” news than is a…

Sorry, I too know many LDS members and really love the SLC area and all the other incredible things in the state. While I like lots of things about the LDS community, the society there has many of the problems of Western states with lots of poverty, plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery. As for crime, the murder…

>highest rate of anti depressant use

I could restate this positively as "highest rate of treated depression," so I'm wondering if it also has abnormally high rates of depression?

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#105

Post by taejo » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:24 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #77

ivanech wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catholics are pretty different. The Catholic Church asks for less than the LDS (and most churches) at the local level, and it's quite a bit more hands-off. The higher levels of Catholic hierarchy looks like a medieval institution because it is a medieval institution. There is definitely set dogma, and the Church does not waver on it, but Catholics are generally quite comfortable being buffet Christians (choosing whic…

> The higher levels of Catholic hierarchy looks like a medieval institution because it is a medieval institution. Well, it's got pre-medieval, medieval, and post-medieval elements. > There is definitely set dogma Depending on who you believe (yes, there are actually doctrinal disputes over which doctrinal pronouncements are in fact dogmatic, though there are a handful of cases which are dogmatic and not in dispute as…

I think the fact that there is a distinction between doctrine and dogma, both of which exist, and with the boundary between them subject to serious scholarly debate, just shows how dogmatic/doctrinaire (which are synonyms in everyday non-Catholic English) the Catholic Church is.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#106

Post by chooseaname » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:33 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #16

mmanfrin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thing a larger factor is the Mormon Church/Mormon population. Utah has some strangely progressive economic policies like housing-first solutions to homelessness. Utah is a red state for sure, especially when it comes to social policies, but has the 'community' orientation that another commenter mentioned that public transit falls neatly in to.

A lot of Christians talk a big game about charity and such. But once I started becoming familiar with LDS folk, I was really impressed. They’re Christians in ways many other denominations only claim to be. KSL-TV (LDS-owned NBC station) has an AppleTV app, and watching the SLC local news is far more interesting than I thought it would be. And there’s far less needless murder and mayhem plus more “good” news than is a…

By definition, there's only one way to be a Christian and LDS aren't Christians.

Pedantry aside, Christians are still human and thus succumb to sin and as such are not as charitable as they should be.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#107

Post by swsieber » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:35 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #104

billiam wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I too know many LDS members and really love the SLC area and all the other incredible things in the state. While I like lots of things about the LDS community, the society there has many of the problems of Western states with lots of poverty, plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery. As for crime, the murder…

>highest rate of anti depressant use I could restate this positively as "highest rate of treated depression," so I'm wondering if it also has abnormally high rates of depression?

Or even just abnormally high rates of depression treatment...

That said, I believe that there is other data showing there is other perscriptio drug abuse more prevelance than usual. If that's from increased depression, or merely from being an easier "bad" coping mechanism that's easier to hide, I'm not sure.

There are a lot of judgemental (self righteous?) Mormons in Utah. There are a lot of nice ones as well, though I think you'll find the ratio of nice to judgemental higher in other states.

My take on it? Being mormon has become somewhat cultural in Utah. It's not nearly so much elsewhere.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#108

Post by thousandautumns » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

tallanvor wrote: post #82

david-cako wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mormons are the kindest and hardest working people in the country. They understand taking care of each other in ways no one else seems to, and I think that is most of the reason why Utah is so functional. Christians that actually act what they speak in nearly every way. An aside, smog is really bad in Salt Lake due to its geography and that is probably one of the reasons they are taking this so seriously.

> Mormons are the kindest There is nothing kind about their treatment of the LGBT population in general, and LGBT youth in particular. And if they were really that good at taking care of each other, I don't think that Utah would rank 5th in the nation for adolescent suicides (children 15 - 19 years) with a per capita suicide rate more than double the national average.* They really do like to put on a good face, but t…

I won’t disagree that Mormons still have a ways to go regarding relations with the LGBT community, but if you have follow the Mormon church at all you’ve seen lots of progress in the last 10 years which continues to be made.

As for the suicide rate, you are making very careless and dangerous assumptions. Yes, it’s higher than most other areas. The reason for why is still very much unknown, and could be attributed in part to a wide variety of factors, ranging anywhere from demographics to the high altitude. Assuming it’s high because Mormons are awful people is baseless and clearly an instance of someone who has looking to confirm their biases.

If you are going to bring data into the conversation you should try and be more empirically minded about it.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#109

Post by chooseaname » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:00 PM UTC

matthewwiese wrote: post #63

dredmorbius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of other features generally included in the definition of cults. Isolation, absolute authority, leader-worship, shunning of defectors, and other elements among them. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult#Warning_signs_of_a_potent...

I agree with you that it's uncharitable to call Christianity a cult when there are more obviously perverse religious/New Age groups that better align with the definition (at least for the sake of debate). However, I'm sure if you asked an LGBTQ person of their experiences with Christianity, especially with the uniquely conservative U.S. evangelical variety, they would say that some of those qualities clearly fit the…

Sadly, lots of Christians forget that no sin is greater than any other sin because all sin separates them from the Father.

Also:

> Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Love the person. The sin is still a sin, but love the person. It doesn't get any more simple than that.

Re: Utah expands public transportation with rapid bus transit, free until 2021

#110

Post by epage » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 12:27 PM UTC

conroy wrote: post #12

As usual, this looks like a half-baked implementation of BRT. They get many things right, including articulated buses, off-vehicle ticket purchase, and raised platforms. However, like most BRT systems in the US, it fails on the most important metric: dedicated lanes. Only half of the route is in exclusive lanes, which means the half the time buses will be fighting traffic. Instead, we should be aiming to build more B…

> Only half of the route is in exclusive lanes, which means the half the time buses will be fighting traffic.

Last I heard, the main segment that will not be dedicated in the end is a road used almost exclusively by students who now have free passes.

I don't remember why but I got the impression this last segment was a combination of nimby and challenges of retrofitting an area not meant for it.

My concern for this road isn't the lack of dedicated lane but it probably has the most dangerous behavior, things like impatint jaywalkers cutting into traffic and cars turning onto the road at bad times.