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False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

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Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#101

Post by RobertRoberts »

epmaybe wrote: post #13
RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> also which a school can do little to help with. I think I disagree with you there. Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances. Relationship/mental issues - Schools could provide or increase their access to counselors/therapists. Peer mental health support is also becoming an attractive option. All of this being said, I'm not arguing that schools shoul…

>Debt - Schools could do better at financial assistance and in helping students better manage their finances.

That's not what I meant, I mean there are students that spend all their "loans" on video games and entertainment instead of on living expenses and school, so no matter what the school does to help, the student will screw this up.

Can't blame the school for irresponsible students.

I have had a couple of homeless kids, yes friggin homeless kids, and one turned into rockstar. The only reason he could even attend was because the school made every student have a laptop (they provided, with full software and support)

There is money available to everyone, and there's only so much you can do to help people. Sometimes letting them fail instead of propping them up is what is actually good for them.

As like many other's here, I failed at the beginning, and learned a lot from that failure.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#102

Post by kevindong »

topkai22 wrote: post #36

The real problem with higher education is really how we finance it. Give the lenders the ability to discriminate based on major and borrowers the ability to default easier and all of a sudden you’ve got some banks seriously motivated to ensure students get economic return on their investments. Besides, it just shouldn’t take a decade or more for someone to discharge a bad debt. Student debt seems uniquely oppressive…

My school, Purdue, offers a program (Income share agreement - ISA) where a borrower pledges a percentage of their future income for 10 years in exchange for tuition money. To me, the most "innovative" part of the program is that the percentage charged varies by major.

The main conclusion from this program is that if you're income is going to be high (basically >=$70k/year starting salary), you're better off with a traditional loan.

Main site: https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/ Tool for comparing ISA to traditional loans: https://www.purdue.edu/backaboiler/comparison/index.html

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#103

Post by RobertRoberts »

achow wrote: post #35
RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

Since the discussion is about higher education in general, perspective from eastern culture.. Higher education most often helps poor students or students of limited means and without any family connections to land coveted jobs, which is life changing not only for them but for their family. Education (and to some degree small time entrepreneurship) is the only way for them to come out of their circumstances that were…

I wonder if this is why so many Asian student do well in the US? Their base motivation is completely different than ours?

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#104

Post by kryogen1c »

jwally wrote: post #92

The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable. College prices can rise infinitely because there is an unlimited supply of AAA+ debt to feed it. Drop that rating to reality and investors don't buy the debt, loans don't get originated, demand for college at $250k dries up.

Used to be. Doctors and lawyers would go through a decade of school on loan and then discharge it all and start a lucrative practice. That's part of how we got here.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#105

Post by scarface74 »

paulie_a wrote: post #34
scarface74 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a bad idea? You can get rid of credit card debt by filing bankruptcy, you can't get rid of student loan debt.

Because I didn't want to add more any more debt. And quite frankly at the time I figured anyone I would would want to work for would not care...sure that piece of paper on the wall is cute but it's a meaningless trophy after a while. What have you actually done and how can operate in a team environment is more important The "prestige" of the degree. Meh

She isn’t a “terrible” person for suggesting it. It was the most logical thing for her to suggest knowing statistically the lifetime salary outcome for someone with a degree vs. no degree.

Her job is to give general advice that works for “90% of the people 90% of the time”.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#106

Post by RobertRoberts »

hmwhy wrote: post #15
RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

> Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about? Have you considered that maybe this isn't a problem with the students but a problem with society and the very problem with the education institutions and teachers like you that are just basically feeding on them? It's far easier (and economically viable in a shortsighted way) to blame students for their s…

>"Isn't that the complete opposite to what teaching is about?"

No, it's not. Higher education is not adult daycare. If I have half a class screwing off and playing video games _in class_, and the other half desperately trying to improve their lives.

I used a very strict grading policy, if you don't turn in your assignment, you get a zero, period. All it takes is 41% of not turning in your assignments and your class doesn't apply to your degree. (ie, failure by default)

Are you suggesting I commit fraud to let these students pass? I did not "fail" them, they failed themselves.

Edit: Fyi, 100% of all my students that failed did so by not turning in assignments. 100% of them.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#107

Post by foldr »

vertex-four wrote: post #86
tikhonj wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If education rather than credentialing was the overwhelming driver, a priority should be providing education to people without credentialing built-in, in a form factor that's a lot more flexible than a classic four-year degree. Ideally, it should be easy for people to educate themselves on their own pace, even as they are doing other things at the same time (like working). I somehow expect a system focused just on ed…

I mean, in the U.K., if you’re interested in learning at your own pace, every university has at least some form of part-time course, local FE colleges do part time courses regularly, and there’s the Open University if you want to work towards a degree part-time. This is an American problem, not one to do with the concept of being able to prove you’ve completed an education.

This is missing the point. There are plenty of flexible educational opportunities in the US too (e.g. community colleges).

Both the UK and the US (and I say this as someone who's taught at universities in both countries) face the problem that the majority of people going to college now are going just because they need a degree to get a job, not because they have any interest in learning anything.

Education is a public good. Forcing people through diploma mills isn't.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#108

Post by vonmoltke »

feverfew wrote: post #77
hakfoo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What bothers me-- assuming there's still a preference for a full degree over a bootcamp certificate-- is that even clearly career focused degree paths are still burdened down with an "academia" mindset that feels dated and quaint. The old "college is about being well rounded/learning how to learn" narratives made sense 50-100 years ago, when people were going to university as more a "cultural elite" thing. The rich 2…

> I'm surprised you aren't seeing legitimate universities responding to the market and producing a 2-3 year BSc program, stripped of almost all general-studies courses. Funnily enough this is how it works in the UK. All BSc/BA degree are 3 years long without any GenEd requirements.

Actually, that is generally only true in England and Wales. Scottish universities generally have 4-year programs with Gen Ed requirements. It's the system the US system is based on.

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#109

Post by azemetre »

kryogen1c wrote: post #104
jwally wrote: post #92

The U.S. would do itself a huge favour by allowing student debt to be bankruptable. College prices can rise infinitely because there is an unlimited supply of AAA+ debt to feed it. Drop that rating to reality and investors don't buy the debt, loans don't get originated, demand for college at $250k dries up.

Used to be. Doctors and lawyers would go through a decade of school on loan and then discharge it all and start a lucrative practice. That's part of how we got here.

Where are you getting this information from? Because nothing I am able to see points to people discharging their loans happening on a massive scale.

The only "news article" [1] I can find that references this mentions 0.3% of student loans were discharged through bankruptcy in 1977 [2].

[1] https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/history-student-loans-bankrup...

[2] http://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/vol126_s...

Seems be to be some serious revisionist history going on...

Re: False Advertising for College Is Pretty Much the Norm

#110

Post by RobertRoberts »

codingdave wrote: post #7
RobertRoberts wrote: post #4

I taught college for about a dozen years (part time on the side), and may get dragged back into again soon. I can say emphatically, the quality of the schooling only helps people who would succeed anyways. Those that won't or can't, no school can help them. There are just too many lazy, unmotivated or simple defeatist students out there. To not be too harsh, there are many students over their head in life (debts, rel…

Where did you teach? I ask because I'm curious if that perspective is accurate at all types of post-secondary institutions, or if there is a difference between for-profits, private schools, community colleges, state schools, Ivy League, etc.

I taught at a community college. It's likely the percentage of people I have run into (I am still on the advisory board) is quite different than the universities. Or it's possible it's this area or a combination of both.

But my experience is anecdotal, and maybe the industry attracts video game players (my assumption) and this makes it more difficult demographic for success. The welders in the school seem to do great and generally succeed from what I have learned from the other departments.

Maybe I was a sucky teacher? Who knows...

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