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The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

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Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#101

Post by chlvsl »

zachrose wrote: post #61
BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

I’ll go the other direction. Public libraries have large and networked collections, physical and digital, that they let you borrow for free. Why do we need to buy from Amazon and subscribe to Netflix when in theory the libraries could provide all that content?

They're not free. They're taxpayer subsidized.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#102

Post by Djvacto »

rayiner wrote: post #18
larkeith wrote: post #7

Personally, I cannot fathom finding it preferable, or even acceptable, for Amazon to attempt to displace my local library; Much like bookstores, there's an essential soul to them any corporate invader like Amazon lacks utterly. I have fond memories of summers spent trawling the stacks, afternoons at a table with friends working on homework, DnD sessions in the private meeting rooms, and browsing old stock auctions fo…

Expenditure of public money on an endeavor should not be driven by romantic notions like whether something has "essential soul." Tax money is a scarce resource. Money that's spent on libraries is tax money that's not available to offer better lunches to needy children. That's the calculus. Our county library system gets $22 million a year in tax dollars to service 2.4 million visits. Could Amazon meet those needs mor…

According to politifact[1], education spending accounts for just 3% of all government spending (mandatory and discretionary). Using libraries as the target for cuts so that we can feed the school-children, and citing logic, is ignoring a lot of other much more 'logical' choices we can make first. Military spending (16%), or Health spending, which is a whopping 28% because of our horse-by-committee system here in the US. We spend $10,348 per person [2], while Canada spends $6,604 per person [3], and the next highest countries reportedly spend $3,000 less per person than we do [4].

[1] - https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/aug... [2] - https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta... [3] - https://www.cihi.ca/en/health-spending [4] - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/health-costs-how-the-us-...

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#103

Post by sizzzzlerz »

What joyless world it would be without libraries. Mine is in the heart of Silicon Valley. I visit nearly every week to exchange read books, videos, and CDs for new material. On Saturday morning, the parking lot is nearly full at opening time. Patronage is multi-cultural, reflecting the demongraphics of my city. The librarians are helpful and friendly. In recent elections, we've approved measures to increase property taxes to pay for extended hours, new materials, and other library activities. I'm sure there are libertarians that may think we're fools who enjoy paying taxes. To that, I give a hearty "fuck off"! A community is more that just low taxes and our library reflects that. I would strongly fight against anyone proposing we replace it with Amazon or any other entity that would never care except as a money-making center.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#104

Post by seandougall »

BurningFrog wrote: post #64
Apocryphon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter-argument is that libraries provide vital services to communities as public facilities in addition to simply being collections of shared knowledge, and that physical space should not be so easily replaced by the virtual.

True, but I think of that as institutional inertia. Libraries were formed to share very expensive printed books in a common space. Over the centuries, books and information became very cheap, and now mostly the common space remains. It certainly has real value. Do we need to keep the pretense of the books as the real purpose for it?

As far as I'm aware, the only people pretending books are libraries' only real purpose are the people here arguing that the Internet should take their place. Libraries themselves certainly aren't pretending to be only about books; they're just physically built around the stacks because books take up so much more space than the other things they provide.

That said, access to books is still a vital service. Not all printed publications are cheap, and not all books can be replaced by Wikipedia (even if you completely ignore fiction, as that argument does by necessity).

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#105

Post by kaitai »

robrenaud wrote: post #55
nxc18 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As they exist today: free access to computers and internet. Information is only literally free and instant if you have access to the internet, which isn't gauranteed especially for low income people.

For a librarian's salary, one could subsidize lots of internet for low income people.

Libraries in the US serve an enormous homeless population. "Subsidizing internet for low income people" is easy to say but does not address the practicalities of providing internet to the homeless, for instance.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#106

Post by petra »

sidlls wrote: post #41
BurningFrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me steelman that argument. Libraries were invented because information was only available on printed (or hand written) books, which were very expensive and scarce resources. Now information can be available almost literally for free and instantly, to anywhere. If the institutional inertia of libraries didn't exist today, would they really be invented as they are? https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Steel_man

Free (except for the cost of bandwidth/internet access, including devices), instantly (unless internet service is poor or inconsistent or both), and anywhere (that has internet access), you mean. There's nothing improved about the argument, it's just obfuscated better.

The internet, at least intermittently and slowly -which is enough for books, is more accessible than public libraries.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#107

Post by jrs95 »

ironjunkie wrote: post #50

I think there is a growing sentiment of disdain of Silicon Valley and tech in general. And I can see why, and it is getting more and more justified. As this article states, that arrogance to think that everything should/can be "disrupted". Usually the argument for disruption is always around another version of "making the world a better place", while it is very clear that the main motivation is to make a couple tech…

There’s sort of an assumption that the status quo is some how morally superior though. And you have to keep in mind that journalists are a part of that status quo. We have one group of elites and their spokespeople bitching about the newcomer.

Personally I’d take the tech douche over the academic or the bureaucrat.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#109

Post by EliRivers »

maym86 wrote: post #5

I'm sick of people going after things they don't use or understand that are valuable to people of lesser means while spewing the efficiencies of the free market. Amazon only makes as much money as it does because it manages to avoid paying tax while utilizing the infrastructure built and maintained by collecting taxes.

Don't forget about their pursuit of the lowest possible standards of employment and working conditions.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#110

Post by Djvacto »

rayiner wrote: post #91
maym86 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of worrying about whether school lunches or libraries should be prioritized let's focus on getting Amazon to pay its fair share in taxes so we can have both. In Alameda county we recently had a vote to raise taxes to fund libraries and it passed overwhelmingly - 76% voted yes. The people here think they're valuable.

Getting "Amazon to pay its fair share in taxes" is a pipe dream. The United States is, by design, a race-to-the-bottom internal free market. Any given county has to balance tax rates with attracting/keeping businesses in the county. So the tax money coming in is what it is. Especially if you're one of the 99.9% of counties outside the Silicon Valley halo. The policy question is how to spend that tax money, and what m…

I think your discounting of a romantic notion, or the concept of "essential soul" overlooks the fact that this correlates highly with how the service is perceived, and thus used, as well as how it is run, which is something you can see discussed various other places in the comments. Replacing the library, whose purpose is the best interests of its users, with a business, whose purpose is the best interests of its shareholders, and expecting it to go well, seems like the real pipe dream to me.
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