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No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

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Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#101

Post by bena »

supertrope wrote: post #98
zaarn wrote: post #83

I don't really understand the american need for a credit card. In germany, I pay almost everything either in cash or via bank transfer, usually pull. I got a prepaid card a while ago, mostly to pay for american services (seriously, I only ever pay to american corporations with it). My debit card (EC card) is almost universal and directly connected to the bank account, no credit needed. CC is barely supported, EC is a…

It's a cultural and market network effect thing. A lot of Americans use debit card instead of credit card that can quickly accrue interest charges if not fully paid off every month. But plenty of people carry high interest debt. The average American who carries a balance owes 15000 USD. USA has high adoption of credit card network. In most places, debit cards are only accepted as Visa/MC not the low fee inter-bank ne…

Yeah. Luckily I've managed to eradicate all of my "bad" debt and get my credit score to fluctuate between 830 - 850.

It makes a lot of things much smoother overall. Basically, no one questions me once they run the credit check. And if they do, it's more like "Are you sure you don't want another? Something else?"

Contrast that with some people I know who have sub-700 scores. Things are just that much more of a hassle. We were comparing car notes and stuff. And my (now) wife was talking about the company handling her auto loan and I was asking where she got her car because I usually get the loan through the manufacturer's credit house (i.e. if I buy a Honda, I'm paying Honda financial). And she got her car through a dealer, but they had to do a little more work to find her the most favorable loan. Basically people are eager to give me a recurring bill while they're a little more reticent to deal with her.

And it's mostly because she has little to no credit history. I advised her: get a credit card with as high a limit as you can and then just forget about it. I have a $15,000 limit card that I just never use. It exists mainly so my overall use is a lower percentage. I don't think she's ever had a credit card. And I think her previous vehicles were purchased through less direct channels or legally purchased by someone else that she paid for (like her mother got the loan, but she paid it). I think this may be her first vehicle that she's purchased at a dealer.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#102

Post by bena »

bowlich wrote: post #73

It feels to me like we're moving away from cards back to cash in the last decade: - Gas stations offering cash discounts - Stores requiring minimum purchases for cards - Restaurants adding a service fee to use a card I don't think I every came upon these three items a decade ago, and now they seem standard.

Before they were structured as "convenience fees". You could buy with a card, but they'd charge a small fee that was either a percentage of the total or a flat rate.

Minimum purchase amounts were way more common when debit cards were becoming a thing.

Basically, you'll find these things mostly in poorer places nowadays where even the store/restaurant owners are struggling and those card fees add up.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#103

Post by patch_collector »

bena wrote: post #97
ac29 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question to me is, why does this population exist in such great numbers? I understand not having good credit, but having access to a checking account with a debit card doesn't seem like it should be insurmountable. The last checking account I opened just took $5 to open the account (technically a "membership" fee at a credit union). No any proof of employment, income, ar assets was needed [0], and I left with a d…

How long ago? Some banks are doing these Pre-paid-ish cards now. I know Chase has Liquid, other banks may call it something else. For the most part, it functions mostly like a debit card backed by an actual checking account. But the requirements are far lower. They don't give a flying fuck who you are. You can even get checks to access the funds on the card. And for like 90% of the time, you'll never realize you don'…

I also opened an account at a credit union less than a year ago. $5 was enough for a checking and saving account, though I had to wait a few days for my debit card to be mailed. I needed proof of residence and ID, but no proof of income.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#104

Post by miohtama »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #92
miohtama wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In European Union 1) Bank account is a right https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr... 2) debit and credit card fees are capped very low http://www.thetravelmagazine.net/no-credit-debit-card-fees-e... This does not remedy privacy issues, but in general is more democratic way of doing things. Card payment cap also effectively killed cashback cards and premium credit cards that largerly favour ric…

2) debit and credit card fees are capped very low True, they try to compensate by pulling some other shitties. Like the old "Do you want to pay in your home currency?" crap. Worst are ATMs, which offer you to "conveniently guarantee a fixed exchange rate", which can be over 10% of the amount retrieved and - needless to say - which you should never accept.

They do the same for US cards. EU regulation states that you need to at least give this choice for a consumer, and they cannot force you to take bad exchange rate. If I recall correctly EU might have given a slap on the wrist for AirBnB, as an US company, for not complying with this and forcing to pick bad USD rate. (I do not have source now, on mobile). So overall I think we can agree EU system with regulation is vastly better and less crooked for anybody else expect card issuers and payment processors.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#105

Post by kevin_b_er »

reaperducer wrote: post #19
gringoDan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An even more extreme example would be a grocery store, whose overall profit margins are only 1-3%.

Which is why it's so surprising that it took so long for Albertsons to get on the Apple Pay bandwagon, which costs less per transaction than traditional swipes or chip+PIN.

Do you have some details on the relative transaction fees of direct credit card usage vs indirect via apple pay?

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#106

Post by exegete »

bena wrote: post #52
United857 wrote: post #43

This article burys the lede -- from the last paragraph: Take the overdraft fee, a punishment for desperate or careless customers that netted banks $15 billion in 2016. As many as half of overdraft fees aren’t assessed at an ATM, where customers can see their balance, but at the point of sale—debit card transactions at the counters of shops and restaurants. And the majority of overdraft fees, the Consumer Financial Pr…

Do they still do the thing where they structure debits to maximize penalties? Say you have $100 in your account and 5 pending transactions: $6, $12, $1, $30, and $95. In that chronological order. The bank clears the $95 first, then the $6 which overdrafts you, then the rest, overdrafting you 3 more times. Whereas if they processed chronologically, you'd only overdraft the $95. Regardless, the person whose account it…

My bank actually orders transactions to make it so that I avoid the overdraft fees. If I get paid one day and also make a debit that would overdraft my account if the payment didn't clear first, they will place the payment first then the debit.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#107

Post by ddingus »

icebraining wrote: post #90
ddingus wrote: post #12

No cash, no sale. Privacy is a big deal to me. Plus downtime. Cash always works. Handling it is sometimes a PITA, but I must say we have a long way to go before electronic systems work well universally. Ordinary people are confused by them, and there are many janky, ultra cheapo type readers out there. For me personally, I leave my mobile unconnected to any payment system. I don't need or want that. I will and do use…

I think cash can fail: when they have no change!

Good call. That is a failure mode.

Very glad I agreed "always" needed to be qualified. The crowd here is sharp, and we benefit mutually from it.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#108

Post by msla »

ddingus wrote: post #66
msla wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cash always works. The falsity of this statement is the entire point of the article. I agree with you otherwise, I think, but this sentence is, now, in this time, unambiguously false.

No it's not. Cash does not have downtime, and it can be used by anyone. Now, someone making a business choice to refuse legal tender does not speak to the robustness of said tender, only their choices. As long as things are good, payment systems running, networks up, that choice can be compelling. When those things are not true, the fall back is what? Not do business? Queue transactions and exchange the info needed?…

> Cash does not have downtime, and it can be used by anyone.

But not at the store the article is talking about.

Which is the point of the article.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#109

Post by bena »

exegete wrote: post #106
bena wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they still do the thing where they structure debits to maximize penalties? Say you have $100 in your account and 5 pending transactions: $6, $12, $1, $30, and $95. In that chronological order. The bank clears the $95 first, then the $6 which overdrafts you, then the rest, overdrafting you 3 more times. Whereas if they processed chronologically, you'd only overdraft the $95. Regardless, the person whose account it…

My bank actually orders transactions to make it so that I avoid the overdraft fees. If I get paid one day and also make a debit that would overdraft my account if the payment didn't clear first, they will place the payment first then the debit.

That's good of them. I mean, that's just good customer service and they'll probably keep you as a customer for far longer by not nickel and diming you at every chance.

Re: No Shirt, No Swipe, No Service

#110

Post by toast0 »

bena wrote: post #42
electroSurveil wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel weird spending at places like this at all. Not just because of what it does to other people, but also how it modifies my own behavior. What if it had been me? I can't leave the house with just a twenty in my pocket? That's not good enough? I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, know what that balance is, make sure the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip c…

> I have to stop, wait, find my wallet, make sure it has a card with a balance on it, make the card isn't damaged (demagnetized, scuffed chip contacts, curled up in the heat of the clothes drier), know what that balance is, and if I don't have this singleton plastic token that I cannot easily replace or trade, I can't go to certain places? This is a gross exaggeration. > I have to stop, wait, find my wallet Because y…

You don't need your liscense (or other id), if you're not driving. (Often, it's a good idea to have, but it's not required for citizens in the US).

Another thing is I can give $20 to a reasonably responsible child and ask them to fetch me a burrito. It's not a good idea to do that with a credit or debit card; I would have authorized them, but if challenged they may not be able to complete the transaction and may have trouble bringing my card back.

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