A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards • Hacker News Board

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#101

Post by delroth » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

innocenat wrote: post #92

jdietrich wrote: post #45

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

That's why it's so sad this[0] 2016 Google April's Fool stays an April's Fool 0: https://www.google.co.jp/ime/furikku/

What do you mean, "stays an April's Fool"? There are circuit schematics as well as software for it, all available under an open source license: https://github.com/google/mozc-devices/tree/master/mozc-furi...

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#102

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

actsasbuffoon wrote: post #81

api wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more important is the nature of PCs vs mobile devices. The mobile platform is designed to commoditize the user and create a stark division between users on one side and content and software creators on the other. You can't easily create anything of any substance on a mobile device and the ecosystem discourages it by e.g. treating user data as unimportant. PCs were designed to be devices for people to create thin…

I strongly disagree. I use my tablet for painting and sketching, composing music, and sometimes a bit of writing. These devices are amazing for content creation. They’re currently not good at programming, which is a small subset of content creation. This problem plagued personal computers for a long while as well. For example, Apple’s Lisa could only be programmed by attaching it to a second Lisa (which was extremely…

Programming is getting better. I regularly use my iPad with a Bluetooth keyboard to hack over SSH/MOSH, and often just use the onscreen keyboard for short edits. Vim is surprisingly usable with it, actually; modal editing is a natural paradigm for a touch screen.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#103

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #60

nickserv wrote: post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

I have mostly forgotten how to write with a pen. I am absolutely fine with that.

I use fountain pens exclusively and take pride in my penmanship. I also love my Apple Pencil - it lets me use and practice my skills, and is a very good approximation of several different types of nibs. Even my older Wacom tablets weren’t as good.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#104

Post by ben-schaaf » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

zenir_ wrote: post #78

jdietrich wrote: post #45

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

Sounds like finally a good usage for the mac touchbar

Feels like it would work better with the Zenbook Pro's touchpad, seeing as it's about the size of a Smartphone.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#105

Post by dorchadas » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

imron wrote: post #32

> Young people who can’t use keyboards How is this different from previous generations? The examples listed (not knowing how to use a keyboard, not knowing how to double click and not knowing what a 'cell' in a spreadsheet is) were all extremely common among my classmates back in highschool (and this is talking about the 90's here, so computers were in fairly widespread use at this point). The new digital divide is j…

I'd say there is a slight difference, because nowadays people expect the kids to know how to use those things. Even when I was in high school in the late 2000s, it wasn't expected that kids necessarily be good at computers; especially in the rural South where lots of people didn't even have high-speed internet (and a good portion still don't have consistent internet access at home).

But, now, these younger people, the ones who are increasingly called 'digital natives', are expected to be good with technology, to know how to type and use the basics of technology and stuff. When, really, all they're good at is downloading apps, and really have no clue what goes on/what they're giving up (cue the number of kids who just download the first free VPN program that works on their phone, without a regard to security or what it does to their phone and stuff).

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#106

Post by jdietrich » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

Noumenon72 wrote: post #70

jdietrich wrote: post #45

It's worth bearing in mind that the source is Japanese. All input methods for the Japanese language are a compromise. Inputting kanji on a physical keyboard is nowhere near as fluid as inputting Latin characters - you're constantly toggling between inputting kana and selecting the kanji options presented by the IME. The prediction and correction technologies of smartphone keyboards are a very good match for kanji and…

That's fascinating. Is the video representative of texting speed, or is this the fastest human in the world? Are they making choices that would take effort in a different system, or just clicking the next suggested letter?

>Is the video representative of texting speed, or is this the fastest human in the world?

From what I understand, he's on the faster end of the normal range.

>Are they making choices that would take effort in a different system, or just clicking the next suggested letter?

With Japanese kanji or Chinese hànzì, there's no practical way to directly input such a large range of characters. Users type a phonetic spelling, then the input method editor presents them with a menu of characters with a corresponding pronunciation. Chinese mostly uses a system of phonetic transliteration based on the Latin alphabet (pinyin), whereas Japanese speakers use both a Latin-based system (romaji) and a native Japanese system of syllabic characters (kana). The flick method shown in the video uses directional gestures to input kana.

For example, if I'm trying to type the Chinese word for bread (面包), I'll input the word as it is pronounced, "mianbao". On mobile devices, a list of predicted characters will appear above my keyboard; on a computer, a numbered list will appear beside my cursor. I select the characters I was intending to input by tapping on mobile, or by pressing the corresponding number key or clicking on a computer. The choice of characters invariably requires some amount of human input, because there are many homophones (different words with the same pronunciation).

This method of text input can often be quite slow and cumbersome, so good prediction and correction algorithms are crucial. The input method is constantly guessing which characters you want; if it's not aware of context, it'll make bad guesses and require a lot more manual selection and correction. Good input method software can predict entire phrases and is very resilient to typos.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#107

Post by matz1 » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

The world are always evolving. Nothing sad about this. This is like saying young people can't use abacus anymore. These new generation of young people will grow up and with new kind of input method or paradigim.

Who knows maybe the traditional way of programming with keyboard will evolve to something completely different for the next generation of people.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#108

Post by dorchadas » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

hocuspocus wrote: post #62

imron wrote: post #32

> Young people who can’t use keyboards How is this different from previous generations? The examples listed (not knowing how to use a keyboard, not knowing how to double click and not knowing what a 'cell' in a spreadsheet is) were all extremely common among my classmates back in highschool (and this is talking about the 90's here, so computers were in fairly widespread use at this point). The new digital divide is j…

In the 2000's I had to write physics and chemistry lab reports, typically 4-5 pages long, with enough formulas that I ended up ditching Word and MathType for some basic LaTeX. In maths I had to write Excel macros and Mathematica scripts. I know that education in Japan is probably a bit more disconnected from reality compared to the pragmatism we see here, but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for…

> but still, the goal of high-school is to prepare students for college no

It depends on who you ask. In the school I work at, in the Rural South in America, many parents and students say the goal of high school should be to teach the students how to do a competent job and take care of themselves after school. So they complain about having to learn Algebra II and other "useless" stuff, while they don't even know how loans and interest and debt and such works. Or how to book a hotel, things like that.

School has, basically, become expected to teach students both job training and basic life skills that, a few generations ago, parents and companies would have explained. It's become basically free training, and, honestly, it defeats the purpose of education; universities are the same way.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#109

Post by dorchadas » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

FactolSarin wrote: post #11

sexydefinesher wrote: post #8

Cant say i feel sorry for the people who chose to be enslaved to interfaces. Information technology will continue to expand into human life more and more, whether you are prepared or not.

In my experience with kids, it's not a choice. It's mostly poor kids who have this problem. Their family doesn't have a PC, and an old/cheap smartphone is the way they access the Internet.

I disagree with this. I work as a teacher at a secondary school. Even the wealthier kids, the ones who I know have computers at home, and often their own laptops that they bring to school, can't use a keyboard to save their life. They're always impressed at how fast I can type (I learned from playing MUDs way too much when I was their age) without errors and how I know all the keyboard shortcuts and such.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#110

Post by esmi » Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

ssivark wrote: post #61

crazygringo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who recently worked in education... yes. Anecdotally, I tended to see it at the community-college level with students who owned a large-screen phone and didn't own a computer. I don't think anyone is writing whole research papers or serious lab reports on phones. A two-page reading response is totally doable. Something with footnotes or equations, not so much.

Yes, one can technically vomit out a few hundred words using a small touch screen. But the tools make it damn difficult to edit and re-organize text. Does this mean that all such reports are basically stream-of-consciousness writing instead of a more carefully polished piece of work?

There are many writing apps available, for example Microsoft Word free edition. One does not have to compose in a text box. Use the app to write it then copy and paste the result.