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Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

independent.co.uk

101–110 of 159 posts

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#101
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The music industry seems to have a pretty good solution for this. The performer gets a cut. The lyrics writer gets a cut. The melody writer gets a cut. I'm sure something similar could work. I'm also recovering from just finding out that the process I thought happened behind artwork was largely false, and has more in common with renaissance painting businesses than the title artists work.

And the people who only contributed financing gets a bigger cut just for already being rich.

They get a bigger cut because they bore the most risk and were willing to support a venture that otherwise wouldn't have had the resources to happen.

Their exact cut is generally a balance between the risk, reward, and ability of the venture to happen without them.

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#102
post #76

I'm a musician, and a lot of these ideas are familiar. But I wonder if the music scene is a little bit more mature or realistic (searching for a word here) about it. A work can go through a lot of different hands before it reaches an audience. People are fully aware of this. Yes, a few people get screwed, but others make an honest living as "technicians." It's been a reasonable side income for me. And except at the s…

More mature or more commercial? You're talking about making money, but no mention of making music. A better argument is that art is getting more technical. or even just that's it's getting physically bigger. Also, when music is commercial it's still called music. Art stops being art when it's made for money. It becomes illustration, design, decoration or some such thing. Historically a lot of EU or American artists a…

> Historically a lot of EU or American artists are pretty much trust fund kids. because if you need to think about money all the time... you can't make art. Art requires some modicum of genuine freedom and most people need money to find it.

And this is why "Art For Art's Sake" was invented when the middle class began to encroach on the upper class's ownership of art and the ability to make it. After all, if your social inferiors can do something, is it really special? No. So either abandon it, or define it to be something those people can't do after all.

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#103
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the people who only contributed financing gets a bigger cut just for already being rich.

Yeah, taking all the risk if the project fails is just their job for having the unmitigated temerity to be rich.

So media tycoons are getting washed up, rather than getting continued returns?

No, of course not: this is why we've had ever increasing numbers of sequels, remakes, franchise films and such. Why lots of heavily promoted music is highly derivative.

Sure, some people invest in riskier stuff, on the hope of much greater returns.

What are they risking, will they suffer in any meaningful way if the project fails?

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#104

to quote Modest Mouse "All them eager actors / gladly taking credit / For the lines created / by the people tucked away from sight" It applies to companies as well.

> "All them eager actors / gladly taking credit / For the lines created / by the people tucked away from sight"

These days, in the sway of the auteur theory, it's more the director taking credit for the whole show, at least in the minds of critics.

Apparently, movies need authors, and the director was chosen as being authorial. Movies with one author (The Room) are seen as being better than movies which were collaborations (Citizen Kane) as the former are more tractable to the modern critical theories.

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#105
post #94
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once most movies have digital reconstructions of dead actors, identity will lose meaning and I think we'll start seeing new works by picasso.

this won't happen with paintings because paintings are not art. They are artificially rare investments. The (financial) powers that makes a painter relevant will ensure new works, even if what you suggest happens, will never carry any value as it implies dissolving the value of previous works. Its the same mechanism that makes only dead painters world famous.

You can't imagine some marketing firm deciding to call new works "Effluvia, by Pablo Picasso"? No arguing it wouldn't have the value of an original, but I'd wager everything it would sell for more than the same thing by Josh Leap.

I'm thinking black webpages with pencil thin white fonts. You have to scroll down like 3 meters of page before you get to any content, it's just tag lines every break, staggered on either side of the page.

"After more than a century" "We revived the master" "Witness history being made at on "

Then they hold an auction, pay a descendant or two some money and book their trip to Aspen.

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the people who only contributed financing gets a bigger cut just for already being rich.

They get a bigger cut because they bore the most risk and were willing to support a venture that otherwise wouldn't have had the resources to happen. Their exact cut is generally a balance between the risk, reward, and ability of the venture to happen without them.

A musician might be risking their entire livelihood; an investor risking a percentage point on their portfolio's annual profit. Bonus points if the wealth was inherited and is managed for them. Your claim just isn't true as a generality.

Risking the largest absolute financial input is not equivalent to having the highest risk unless you exclude all human value, and consider a dollar to be of equal value to all people.

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#107

Sounds a lot like academia really and the open secret in many fields that the graduate "coauthors" were really the ones who did the work and the "main author" was the do nothing but compensated and credited more professor who hypocritically starts off every course stating plagiarism will not be tolerated. The lack of transparency is what makes both of them bad. It would be one thing if an established member vouched f…

I actually think it's almost the opposite in my experience as a physicist. Often graduate students are given the first author position, the position which indicates the most credit, even though in many ways the graduate student is closer to a highly skilled technician following the path laid down by their more experienced professor.

The OP is right to raise questions about this in academics.

The problem is that all sorts of things happens in academics:

The grad student is first author and the professor is last author, and people see the credit that way.

The grad student is first author and the professor is last, but people see the prof as the "real" first author. Look at citation formats and explain why the last author is kept on lengthy author lists in many. It's because last author doesn't mean least work anymore. I know a colleague who quietly started jockeying to be last author on papers because he knew it was almost as/more prestigious than first.

The grad student is first and the professor is anywhere else but people assume that it's the profs work because "grad students are just learning" or some such thing.

The grad student deserves the credit but is second or third or something else because of power differentials involving all the other authors.

The grad student should be sole author because they're the one with the idea and the one who did the work but profs expect credit because they read a draft and offered some minor feedback.

A coauthor formulating and doing the analyses, without whom the paper could not exist because they were the ones translating the theories into quantifiable testable models, are left off the paper because "analyses don't deserve credit" or something.

Really, anything and everything goes in academics. It's broken. I realize that there are people/groups who practice with integrity but this is not something you can assume everywhere. Even when people are trying to have integrity, weird scenarios develop that have no good solutions.

I think this issue with art technicians vs artists is really a model of many problems with income inequality in society. The implementation matters. The people who bring it to fruition matter. They deserve credit and compensation. Ideas without execution are just ideas. I honestly can't believe we even entertain the idea that execution is valueless, or that we have discussions where people fetishize Steve Jobs so much that he's treated as the sole creator behind the iphone, as if he caused it to materialize out of thin air, and the previous phones by LG, and the engineers, and designers, and everyone else are just stupid uncreative hacks who were just following Job's orders down to the microcircuitry on the chips.

Its fraud and it's rampant in society today. For some reason we're uncomfortable with the messy reality that almost every innovation or product is the result of some distributed, collaborative effort, and often really involves many people making small contributions.

https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2017/09/07/the-great-man-parado...

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#108

One of the longstanding examples of this that immediately sprung to mind is Dale Chihuly ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_Chihuly ), the renown glass sculptor. Except Chihuly has not physically produced ANY of the glass sculptures attributed to him since 1979: "...he continued to blow glass until he dislocated his right shoulder in a 1979 bodysurfing accident. No longer able to hold the glass blowing pipe, he hir…

I get your point but look at movies. While a movie is usually the directors, there's a ten minute scroll of credits at the end.

When AI Weiwei has millions of marbles produced for an art installation we all know he didn't make them, but the examples in this articles are mostly artist taking full ownership of the entire process.

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#109
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It's an interesting thought experiment about what art actually IS: is art the idea behind the piece? Is it the skill that the individual has in physically bringing the piece to life? If the person with the vision doesn't physically produce the outcome, is it still their art? I sincerely enjoy the fact that people regularly visiting Hacker News think that is an "interesting thought experiment", in the context of ar…

Except we attribute the product to the company, not the CEO. Wouldn't the equivalent be "This is a MyArtStudio piece of art", rather than "this is a piece of art by pdpi"?

Theranos?

Re: Art technicians: The industry’s dirty secret, or all part of the process?

#110

Sounds a lot like academia really and the open secret in many fields that the graduate "coauthors" were really the ones who did the work and the "main author" was the do nothing but compensated and credited more professor who hypocritically starts off every course stating plagiarism will not be tolerated. The lack of transparency is what makes both of them bad. It would be one thing if an established member vouched f…

Pharmaceutical industry uses ghostwriters who are not even coauthors.

Medical ghostwriter

>Medical ghostwriters are employed by pharmaceutical companies and medical-device manufacturers to produce apparently independent manuscripts for peer-reviewed journals, conference presentations and other communications. Physicians and other scientists are paid to attach their names to the manuscripts as though they had authored them. The named authors may have had little or no involvement in the research or writing process.

Prevalence:

>It is difficult to determine how frequently ghostwriting occurs due to its covert nature. A 2009 New York Times article estimated that 11% of New England Journal of Medicine articles, 8% of JAMA, Lancet and PLoS Medicine articles, 5% of Annals of Internal Medicine articles and 2% of Nature Medicine were ghost written.[22] Between 1998 and 2005 Wyeth had 26 papers promoting hormone replacement therapy (HRT) published in scientific journals.[23]

> Previously secret internal Wyeth documents providing evidence of this are viewable on the Drug Industry Document Archive. It also appears to have occurred in 75% of industry funded trials between 1994 - 1995 approved by the Scientific Ethical Committees for Copenhagen and Frederiksberg.[1] Of the articles published from 1998 to 2000 regarding sertraline, between 18% and 40% were ghost written by Pfizer.[1] A questionnaire using comparable methods in 2005 and 2008 with a 14-28% response rate found a decrease in number of people who reported ghostwriting among professional medical writers.[24

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_ghostwriter

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