Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#101

Post by rayiner » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:47 AM UTC

EventH- wrote: post #90

rayiner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

This is pure ideology, built with rhetoric on emotional sand instead of argument from principle. A difference in outcome by itself in no way lays a requirement on society to 'drive that disparity to zero.' This is a baseless, indefensible assertion and leads to utter chaos when applied across society in the myriad ways one may analyze 'inequalities of outcome.'

Society is necessarily built on ideology (also known as principles). The idea that differences in outcome shouldn't be based on factors like race isn't exactly a radical one. Nor is it based on rhetoric or emotion--if we assume races are equal, differences in outcome tied to race must be the result of societal inefficiencies and failures.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#102

Post by Covzire » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:48 AM UTC

snomad wrote: post #59

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like there are two conflicting goals: - don’t explicitly consider race, gender, etc., while you make a decision about a cohort of admitted applicants. That is, only use other “performance” criteria (grades, essay, recommendations, etc). - ensure that post facto, the observed distribution of demographic properties of your cohort of admitted students fairly reflects the natural distribution, within a societall…

> there is endemic and generational discrimination and privilege issues that can mean even if you truly did not want to make decisions based on race, religion, nationality, etc., you inadvertently did just by using proxies for societal scale discrimination or disadvantage in those categories. Agreed. However, it seems to rest on confusing race for class. How about we just focus on class and get all the benefits (pick…

The rich will just go elsewhere, so you might end up doubling their education cost (if new institutions need to be created) but their placement in society will still be the same. Current Ivy league's would fall in stature and we'd back here again within a decade.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#103

Post by shipman05 » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:49 AM UTC

sremani wrote: post #89

rayiner wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Black people on average make 1/3 less income than the average white person because certain significant subgroups of white people are highly privileged. No that is wrong. It’s not some elite white subgroup. According to the BLS: “Among the major race and ethnicity groups, median weekly earnings for Black men working at full-time jobs were $723, or 72.5 percent of the median for White men ($997).” That’s not even cou…

In spite of a century the Black population is still concentrated in the South. I am not saying the disparity does not exist. Blacks are less than 10% of population in California and about 33% of population in Alabama. That it self will skew numbers in certain way.

Which in some ways proves the point. Poverty begets poverty. Black Americans are under-represented in the well-educated cohorts of young professionals who get high salary jobs and easily move to high cost-of-living areas.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#104

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:50 AM UTC

silisili wrote: post #69

dominotw wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is race even a factor? This has been endlessly discussed to death. It is a factor because it is a factor in society(common eg: black names not getting callback for an interview). It is a factor because social inertia exists. Ignoring it and putting your head in the sand is not moving forward, places like harvard to want to take corrective measures to offset the inertia. Yes we would like to live in a race blind…

Why is the name even a factor? Why can't it be an input of criteria, and handled by formulas? We're not in the 1920's with a guy with a fat cigar looking at each one individually, while burning and throwing away the ones that sound (irish/black/jewish/whatever).

[deleted]

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#105

Post by axaxs » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:50 AM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #75

silisili wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the name even a factor? Why can't it be an input of criteria, and handled by formulas? We're not in the 1920's with a guy with a fat cigar looking at each one individually, while burning and throwing away the ones that sound (irish/black/jewish/whatever).

Names absolutely matter. Many studies have been done where the same resume was submitted with different names. Why not Google it?

I did not mean to imply that names do not matter wrt getting a callback at a job, of that I'm aware. I meant more as a 'why does it matter in qualifications.' i.e. in my formulaic paradise that is apparently too futuristic, name would be omitted as a factor. I don't think it's only race based, either. I'm sure an Alexander would get more callbacks than a Bubba. But people don't choose their name, such is life.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#106

Post by pshre » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:51 AM UTC

JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #63

PakG1 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an academic paper yesterday that read exactly like you. It's crazy hard to parse the words without my eyes glazing over. I fear universities try to teach students to sound clever and intellectual, not clear and comprehensible. I just had to vent because I have to slog through a large number of academic papers over the next few weeks and if they're all like this, I might weep from agony. Besides that, parsing y…

I apologise, but that is my genuine question, and my genuine thoughts. The way I wrote that is because on issues like this, people get quite charged one way or another, so I wanted to avoid anything personal and just hear the specifics. I'm definitely putting myself into the deep end on this stuff, so I want to hear more on the arguments from both sides - and also the specifics on this case because a lot of it slides…

Do you only think it is a problem for admission metrics?

What about other clearly obvious racial biases. Is it a problem that the NBA lacks Asian players?

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#107

Post by jappleseed9 » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:52 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #53

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

Ofcourse all types of people are likely intrinsically pretty close to everyone else, but you can't underestimate the effect of culture. Roughly speaking, alcohol is legal worldwide if you're above the age of 18 or so. So why do alcoholism rates vary massively between countries? It's largely 'culture'.

Black american culture has been pretty self-destructive these last hundred years. Look at rap music videos, thug culture, single motherhood statistics, etc. Meanwhile recent immigrants (asian americans) are passing them.

Culture is incredibly powerful and we don't all have the same culture.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#108

Post by Old_Thrashbarg » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:54 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #53

gourial wrote: post #4

By enforcing racial quotas, Harvard and other institutions are actively cementing race as an important factor in our society, as if it's something we should care about. As such, they are not helping society to become post-racial - as must be our goal - but instead are forcing a racialized view of the world down our collective throats. While well intentioned, racial quotas are a regressive policy and history will look…

Race blindness isn’t the end goal, the goal is racial equality. Today, black people on average make 1/3 less income than white people. Because we must assume black people are intrinsically just as capable as white people, the goal must be to drive that disparity to zero. With that in mind, it makes no sense from a scientific/engineering perspective to ignore race. No scientist or engineer looks at a situation, sees a…

> History will remember “race blindness” with derision.

Reminds of the "I Don't See Race" skit by CollegeHumor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qArvBdHkJA

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#109

Post by Jamerson » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:54 AM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #58

JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit - Could I ask why I was downvoted? I'd like to know where I went wrong here. Forgive the question, but that is a general statement to a specific case, and I am having trouble seeing the clear path between your statement and the article. Can you elaborate? Are you taking the position that any and all attempts to shape admissions into universities based on race are misguided and regressive? The specific case here…

I read an academic paper yesterday that read exactly like you. It's crazy hard to parse the words without my eyes glazing over. I fear universities try to teach students to sound clever and intellectual, not clear and comprehensible. I just had to vent because I have to slog through a large number of academic papers over the next few weeks and if they're all like this, I might weep from agony. Besides that, parsing y…

I'm really starting to think this site is being used to test AI. Either that, or speakers of English as a second language trying to participate. I see a lot of comments like this: high average syllable count, no actual meaning.

Re: Harvard discrimination lawsuit: data show penalization of Asian-Americans

#110

Post by _8j50 » Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 2:55 AM UTC

Ends don't justify means. Period.

This isn't right. That alone is enough of a reason to be against it.

Ethics is never a question of goals,if that was the case anything can be justified with an end goal which appears worthy enough.

There is this subversive ideology about acheiving equality. People are created equal regardless of the "race" social construct. If you have to make someone equal then they were not born equal.

If someone can't get into harvard due to historical disparities against their group then what needs correction is not harvard but instead their current sociological conditions.

How can a person not feel completely insulted when they get accepted into a school or a job solely for the sake of their skin color? I would feel humiliated.

This society needs to get back to the basics. If you accept something as wrong then also accept it as wrong for everyone, else scratch out any reference of equality under the law.