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Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

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Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#101

Post by nitrogen »

chrisseaton wrote: post #92
paidleaf wrote: post #84

I had a huge argument with my philosophy professor about this. Our class was discussing the distinguishing characteristics between humans and animals. Someone brought up humans commit suicide while animals don't. The professor claimed that was false and brought up lemmings as evidence. I chimed in that lemming suicides were most likely myth and even if it was real, we shouldn't accept the idea of lemming suicides unt…

But lots of animals commit suicide. You don't need to talk about lemmings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothysis And your discussion sounds with your professor sounds really stupid - he literally claimed to be the ultimate authority on lemmings? An academic with a chair said that? Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you.

An academic with a chair said that? Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you.

Are you now claiming to be the ultimate authority on academics and their interactions with 'paidleaf?

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#102

Post by chrisseaton »

nitrogen wrote: post #101
chrisseaton wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But lots of animals commit suicide. You don't need to talk about lemmings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothysis And your discussion sounds with your professor sounds really stupid - he literally claimed to be the ultimate authority on lemmings? An academic with a chair said that? Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you.

An academic with a chair said that? Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you. Are you now claiming to be the ultimate authority on academics and their interactions with 'paidleaf?

> Are you now claiming to be the ultimate authority on academics and their interactions with 'paidleaf?

No?

I said 'I'm not sure I believe you' - that only makes a statement about what I believe about this interaction. It doesn't claim anything about ultimate authority at all.

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#103

Post by dekhn »

paidleaf wrote: post #84

I had a huge argument with my philosophy professor about this. Our class was discussing the distinguishing characteristics between humans and animals. Someone brought up humans commit suicide while animals don't. The professor claimed that was false and brought up lemmings as evidence. I chimed in that lemming suicides were most likely myth and even if it was real, we shouldn't accept the idea of lemming suicides unt…

Never argue with philosophy professors using scientific grade evidence. As you said, they consider themselves the authority and will brook no dissent.

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#104

Post by GhostVII »

Keverw wrote: post #67

Oh wow, they killed animals just to make a film? I am a Disney fan but never knew about this. Disappointed. I would think modern Disney probably is much better than that nowadays. I think nothing like this would happen today thanks to CGI.

If you are OK with eating meat, you should be OK with killing animals for a movie, in my opinion. When you eat a steak, you could eat potatoes or something instead, but you choose to eat an animal because you like how it tastes. I don't see that as any different from killing animals for a movie, in both cases you are unnecessarily killing an animal for your enjoyment.

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#105

Post by xkjkls »

hexscrews wrote: post #45
paulie_a wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tldr: Disney committed lemming genocide

Wouldn't xenocide be a more apt description? A quick search for genocide gives the definition of: "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation." While xenocide is described as: xenocide (plural xenocides) The killing of a stranger or foreigner. (science fiction) The genocide of an entire alien species. (US, colloquial) The intentional killing of an entire…

Probably -- the problem is that no one actually knows the word xenocide who isn't an Orson Scott Card fan.

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#106

Post by Keverw »

GhostVII wrote: post #104
Keverw wrote: post #67

Oh wow, they killed animals just to make a film? I am a Disney fan but never knew about this. Disappointed. I would think modern Disney probably is much better than that nowadays. I think nothing like this would happen today thanks to CGI.

If you are OK with eating meat, you should be OK with killing animals for a movie, in my opinion. When you eat a steak, you could eat potatoes or something instead, but you choose to eat an animal because you like how it tastes. I don't see that as any different from killing animals for a movie, in both cases you are unnecessarily killing an animal for your enjoyment.

Well when you eat a animal, you are doing it because eating is necessary, and some people are picky eaters conditioned to like meat since childhood.

But I feel like killing them for a movie is a waste, unless they are eaten later maybe but still not too much better. Like if you kill a animal, you should try to use every single part of it as possible. Same thing the Native Americans believe.

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#107

Post by plink »

paidleaf wrote: post #84

I had a huge argument with my philosophy professor about this. Our class was discussing the distinguishing characteristics between humans and animals. Someone brought up humans commit suicide while animals don't. The professor claimed that was false and brought up lemmings as evidence. I chimed in that lemming suicides were most likely myth and even if it was real, we shouldn't accept the idea of lemming suicides unt…

School's name and professor's name please, just so your comment has evidence. ;)

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#108

Post by shkkmo »

otakucode wrote: post #37
shkkmo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of my favorite wikipedia pages. I'm not aware of any other resource that does so much to fix our broken epistemology.

That's not epistemology... epistemology is about the fundamental nature of truth and knowledge, like whether reality is shared and knowable. I think you mean 'common sense.' Though nowadays always spoken of positively, originally 'common sense' referred to the sense of commoners, being incomplete and unreasoned and just an accumulation of happenstance. That's pretty much what common misconceptions are.

I know what epistemology is, but apparently you don't. "the fundamental nature of truth and knowledge, like whether reality is shared and knowable" is not epistemology but metaphysics. Epistemology may dip into metaphysics, (and vice-versa) but they are generally distinct fields.

By "our broken epistemology" I mean "our broken methodologies of evaluating the truth of our beliefs and the certainty of our knowledge". The brokenness of our practical epistemology is why these common misconceptions not only exist, but continue to dominate.

I could have been more precise and said "our broken epistemological systems",

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#109

Post by BrandoElFollito »

paidleaf wrote: post #84

I had a huge argument with my philosophy professor about this. Our class was discussing the distinguishing characteristics between humans and animals. Someone brought up humans commit suicide while animals don't. The professor claimed that was false and brought up lemmings as evidence. I chimed in that lemming suicides were most likely myth and even if it was real, we shouldn't accept the idea of lemming suicides unt…

The fact that a philosopher claims to be an academic reference regarding hard science is sad.

It is already difficult for philosophy to avoid being grouped with dance, music and volleyball - academically speaking, and then someone makes it even more difficult by being silly.

Disclamer: as a physicist I classify philosophy together with the subjects mentioned earlier and I play volleyball a lot.

Re: Lemming Suicide Myth: Disney Film Faked Bogus Behavior

#110

Post by paidleaf »

chrisseaton wrote: post #92
paidleaf wrote: post #84

I had a huge argument with my philosophy professor about this. Our class was discussing the distinguishing characteristics between humans and animals. Someone brought up humans commit suicide while animals don't. The professor claimed that was false and brought up lemmings as evidence. I chimed in that lemming suicides were most likely myth and even if it was real, we shouldn't accept the idea of lemming suicides unt…

But lots of animals commit suicide. You don't need to talk about lemmings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothysis And your discussion sounds with your professor sounds really stupid - he literally claimed to be the ultimate authority on lemmings? An academic with a chair said that? Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you.

> But lots of animals commit suicide. You don't need to talk about lemmings.

We have to talk about lemmings when we are talking about conscious human-like suicide because lemmings are the only animals that purportedly had conscious intentional suicides like human being. After all, the philosophical debate was "the difference between humans and animals". I actually brought up honey bees committing suicide ( once they sting, they die ). But the professor rejected it ( rightly so ) because it wasn't conscious and intentional suicide. For example, a parent storming a burning building to save their child and dying in the process isn't suicide in the human sense. A female octopus giving birth and dying isn't suicide.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/07/30/octopus-c...

A soldier going to war and dying isn't suicide. A mother bison trying to save her calf from predators and dying in the process isn't suicide. There is a difference between sacrifice and intentional conscious suicide where no one benefits.

> And your discussion sounds with your professor sounds really stupid

It wasn't. It was one of my favorite classes in college and hence why I decided to double major in philosophy. It was the first time I can say I really thought about something. If the class was "really stupid" it wouldn't have left such an indelible mark on me.

> he literally claimed to be the ultimate authority on lemmings?

Yes. He believed it was a fact just like the earth was a sphere is a fact. And ultimately, he is the one grading the term paper and he is the ultimate authority. Do you really expect a professor to back down on things he believe to be facts?

> An academic with a chair said that?

Yes. What's so surprising about that? Do you know what an academic with a chair is? An expert. Someone with authority.

> Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you.

Are you an "associate professor" by any chance? What is so unbelievable about it? Why are you so defensive?

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