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Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

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Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#101

Post by sebringj »

thosakwe wrote: post #21

This was one of the more interesting software talks I've listened to recently. I like that it was very real - there are serious, serious problems with Node.js, and the fact that even the creator acknowledges these problems caught my attention. I'm also a long-time user of Dart, so when he brought that up, and compared TypeScript to its shortcomings, I definitely agreed. That being said, even with the Deno project, I'…

"I'm not sure what can come of performance and security running JavaScript outside of a browser" well we already know about performance. Ryan was mentioning and demonstrating that JS is in a sandbox already and if modifying node to have message passing with dispatchers mirroring on native and js sides, you in effect have very tight security as you are strictly allowing only sys calls that are going through a single point and can be managed through a single point. Seems like that one is figured out with Deno.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#102

Post by JeremyBanks »

sametmax wrote: post #87
dylrich wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His arguments for it seemed reasonable - would love to hear your criticisms

What the others say. And also, golang tried no centralized package management by using git repo. It didn't end with people go getting from moving masters. Of course they did. And in an area of finally accepting lock files, do you really want to go back in middle age ? Lock files are not a constraint. They are a god saver. You want lock files. You don't want to have either vague dependencies or pin pointed ones. You n…

You are imagining the worst possible execution of these ideas. Nobody is proposing that you should start using libraries that pull in code from random domains, unless you have some specific need to. Whitelisting sources is such an obvious step, given the security focus, that you should really have applied the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity in your speculation.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#103

Post by gameswithgo »

StreamBright wrote: post #15

Maybe it is just me but Javascript is not my favourite dynamic language. Given project like ReasonML and other languages that have type inference prototyping is not harder than without types. Is it a valid argument that it slows you down? Not sure.

at least some research into types and productivity showed that the highest productivity was when function signatures have to have types but type inference exists inside functions (like auto in c++, var in C#)

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#104

Post by maerF0x0 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #86
mschuetz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> performance and security from running JavaScript outside of a browser. I'm just now building a node app to filter point clouds, so lots of number crunching. In two days I've got something in javascript that's faster than the C++ solution I've been working on for a week. Mostly because javascript/node makes it trivial to parallelize file IO while doing work in the main thread. This app reads 13 million points from 1…

Right, V8 works great at optimizing JS and it handles streams great. Productivity is one of the most important factors to think about when building software systems since human time is much more expensive than CPU cycles. That's why Node.js works great.

This fails from the false dichotomy of speed of execution vs speed of development (which includes fixing bugs). Well written languages optimize to a certain weighted preference of the two and some languages deliver more of _both_ than others.

For example; Typescript is fast to write. and Golang is reasonably quick to write, _and_ execute. Both should have ~15% less bugs than javascript, potentially making them faster to develop (where bugs matter).

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#105

Post by goatlover »

sametmax wrote: post #91
pvsukale3 wrote: post #60

Can anyone explain why he called Dart a complete failure? https://youtu.be/M3BM9TB-8yA?t=19m55s ps: I am a junior developer. I am taking up Dart to learn Mobile apps development using Flutter.

There is only one metrics in programming language: popularity. Not quality. Not elegance. Not features. Not performance. The Dart community is ridiculously small compared to anything to the competition, despite the heavy investment in it.

It's kind of sad this is so often the case in tech.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#106

Post by krmmalik »

Great talk. I have missed Ryan and im not even a developer. I just love his mind. He always demonstrates a lot of purity of thought in many ways.

By the way, was i the only person to notice that “Deno” is an amalgamation of “Node”?

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#107

Post by sametmax »

JeremyBanks wrote: post #102
sametmax wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the others say. And also, golang tried no centralized package management by using git repo. It didn't end with people go getting from moving masters. Of course they did. And in an area of finally accepting lock files, do you really want to go back in middle age ? Lock files are not a constraint. They are a god saver. You want lock files. You don't want to have either vague dependencies or pin pointed ones. You n…

You are imagining the worst possible execution of these ideas. Nobody is proposing that you should start using libraries that pull in code from random domains, unless you have some specific need to. Whitelisting sources is such an obvious step, given the security focus, that you should really have applied the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity in your speculation.

No one proposed to make spaghetti code with "goto".

Yet we did. And we replaced it with "if" or"while", to avoid repeating history.

This is a prophecy: this dep managing concept, if kept in this form, will cause something terrible. It will.

Good luck.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#108

Post by ninjakeyboard »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #104
chrisco255 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, V8 works great at optimizing JS and it handles streams great. Productivity is one of the most important factors to think about when building software systems since human time is much more expensive than CPU cycles. That's why Node.js works great.

This fails from the false dichotomy of speed of execution vs speed of development (which includes fixing bugs). Well written languages optimize to a certain weighted preference of the two and some languages deliver more of _both_ than others. For example; Typescript is fast to write. and Golang is reasonably quick to write, _and_ execute. Both should have ~15% less bugs than javascript, potentially making them faster…

what is the 15% figure from? I'm suddenly working with a dynamically typed language (elixir) coming from scala and I do find more bugs. Would like some hard evidence to support that so just curious.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#109

Post by chrisco255 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #104
chrisco255 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, V8 works great at optimizing JS and it handles streams great. Productivity is one of the most important factors to think about when building software systems since human time is much more expensive than CPU cycles. That's why Node.js works great.

This fails from the false dichotomy of speed of execution vs speed of development (which includes fixing bugs). Well written languages optimize to a certain weighted preference of the two and some languages deliver more of _both_ than others. For example; Typescript is fast to write. and Golang is reasonably quick to write, _and_ execute. Both should have ~15% less bugs than javascript, potentially making them faster…

Once you've paid the upfront cost of learning Golang, I might agree with you. But then again, in particular when building a full stack app (and not when on a team that has back end and front end specialists), it's helpful to use the same context (JS/NPM) when devving. People are bad at context switching.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#110

Post by jcranendonk »

sagichmal wrote: post #90
sametmax wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the others say. And also, golang tried no centralized package management by using git repo. It didn't end with people go getting from moving masters. Of course they did. And in an area of finally accepting lock files, do you really want to go back in middle age ? Lock files are not a constraint. They are a god saver. You want lock files. You don't want to have either vague dependencies or pin pointed ones. You n…

> golang tried no centralized package management by using git repo. It didn't end well. What? There's no fundamental problem with it. It will continue. What do you mean?

I like go as a language, but its lack of package management is the single reason I no longer use it.
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