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China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

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Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#101
post #22
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But we at least must do something about it" Like oppress an entire region of people who aren't committing violence to get to the handful who are?

Gaza shows that handful can easily become most of the population if you let it get out of control. The left's deep love and devotion to a religion that oppresses their other favoured groups - gays and women - astonishes me.

Please don't use HN for ideological battle or religious flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#102
post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

Seems to me that Christian fundamentalism is a far greater threat to world peace. Muslim extremists sometimes blow stuff up, Christian extremists invade and wreck entire countries.

I mean, Muslim extremists would do the same if they could, but they can’t. I’m more worried about those who can.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#103
post #81
post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

If technology is able to repress resistance in more powerful ways than was previously possible then things like Northern Ireland won't be possible.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#104
post #78
post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

One could argue that “totalitarianism” was the default government form for most of history. The problem is, the higher we go on the Maslow pyramid, the more likely it is for it to fail. You just can’t have a huge mass of creative, inventive people without them complaining about leadership (and wanting to improve it). And totalitarianism by definition has problems accepting criticism. The only way for totalitarianism…

>The only way for totalitarianism to “work” is if the rulers are both much smarter than the population as a whole and also benevolent.

I dont think thats realistic anymore. Once they are able to hit first and hit hard when opposition forms, they are pretty much untouchable.

The whole argument, of autocratic regimes having a higher chance of collapsing the longer the reign looks like a naive outdated approach to me. It bets on a critical mass of opposition forming. With total surveillance this wont happen.

A successful mass protest has to start somewhere. If you arrest those first people willing to risk everything you quell the entire thing. Its the basic concept of 1984. The only thing holding back this dystopia was the lack of a big brother state with sufficient insight.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#105
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all Islam is the same. Indonesian islamic culture is not the same as Turkish, or Arabian. It's way too simplistic to lump the situation of every country together. Are a minority of the people of Xinjiang committing violent acts because they want a Caliphate and to convert Han chinese, or are they doing it because the Uighurs are treated very badly by the Chinese government and they want autonomy and rallying arou…

"...Why do we not treat the Northern Irish who rallied around their religious identity and attracted the sympathies and support of American Irish? Why when Tibetan Buddhists commit violence we don't say it's their religion and immediately start looking for geo-political or economic reasons?..." To be perfectly frank, a large part of the reason is just propaganda. For instance, are Buddhists slaughtering muslims in My…

[deleted]

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#106
post #5

Whether you like China or not, Islamic fundamentalism is a huge problem to global peace today. Not just in the Middle East, Europe, but also parts of Southeast Asia (Malaysia, Philipphines) and China. The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor (which used to be just as bad as Islamic f…

This crosses into religious flamewar. That invariably leads to shitty threads that destroy what's good about HN, and so is off topic here, therefore please don't.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#107
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem is people clinging to old time religious beliefs that women are inferior and must be veiled and that infidels are not worthy Wow, such an uninformed generalized comment. Not something you would expect to see at hacker news. Anyway, just because the West had problems with Christianity does not mean the East have the same problems with Islam. That is one of the reasons why Islam has more practicing followe…

What's so uninformed about it [0], are you implying those beliefs should still be held? The main reason there are so many islam followers is that they have more kids on average. [0] http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi...

Just like any other legal system, Islamic Legal system is also incredibly complex and nuanced. I suggest reading this article on the issue of apostasy in Islam [0].

In a legal matter, what general Muslims think about it (like a pew poll) does not matter because most of them, just like any other population are not experts in judiciary.

Regarding your points about Muslims having more kids, there is nothing preventing these kids from turning away from the religion, just like the kids of old devout Christians today no longer identify as at least practicing Christians.

0. https://yaqeeninstitute.org/en/jonathan-brown/the-issue-of-a...

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#108
post #81
post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

I think if the state enlists and coopts a sufficient percentage of the local population, then it can work indefinitely, if the gov't provides enough in terms of basic needs. The idea of local administrative committees and youth organizations as an arm to make others toe the line is not a foreign concept to the CCP.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#109
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We've slowly dispelled Christian fervor" is an incredibly misinformed take. Christian fundamentalists are still well armed and causing trouble in the United States on a regular basis, even if the Crusades haven't happened in a while. The death toll is sizable. Big names in evangelical culture with TV air time or even visits to the White House also trumpet on a regular basis that the end times are near, blood will ne…

I thought it was misinformed for the opposite reason. "Christian fervour" was responsible for the sailing of the Mayflower, the development of the modern public sphere, the majority of the high points of Western culture from Dante to Bach, and most of the values we live by today.

Is Christianity responsible, or did it just happen to be the dominant religion in the time and place where other factors lined up to make this happen?

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#110
post #81
post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

I also doubt it is sustainable.

China has a social credit system that is locked in with this totalitarian system. Based on how irrational humans are I fully expect a huge spike in suicides. Once people get into so much social debt that people stop associating with them and they are locked out of work and simple things such as garbage collection they will start to end their lives.

I want to be wrong about suicide and right about social credit systems though....

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