Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#101

Post by woah » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

hudon wrote: post #87

lend000 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I then find it difficult to believe that you cannot think of productive applications of cryptocurrencies. As someone who researches self organizing systems, especially in the network space, I have seen numerous applications of mesh network organization based on a blockchain-like decentralized ledger that adds a new dimension after well over a decade long plateau in development. Semi-centralized blockchains utilizing…

- Can you show me one of these blockchain-based mesh networks in production? How many users do they have? - As for voting and trade records, how do you deal with the fact that developers can fork the chain and invalidate past transactions like they did with Bitcoin in 2010 and 2013, or like they did with Ethereum in 2016? Why do you trust the developers more than your own government? And if you live in an oppressive…

I'm working on a blockchain-based mesh project. We currently have around 6 users on a test network in Oregon, but the product isn't completely done yet and no real payments work yet. Our goal is to create a system where individuals and businesses can participate in a decentralized ISP with the routers "peering" automatically and routing along the cheapest, best paths in the network.

What blockchain gives us is a very low overhead payment system (payment channels), along with decentralized management of IP addresses and networks.

This could all in principle be managed by a centralized server but blockchain gives our systems a more-or-less neutral venue in which people can interact with predetermined rules, whereas a centralized server would put us in the position of arbiter of all interactions on the system.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#102

Post by CryptoPunk » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:57 PM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #24

repomies6999 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have violence monopoly backing up your business, it is easy to limit competition.

we tried wildcat banknotes and it didn't exactly revolutionize anything https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_banking

The share of our attention captured by isolated bank failures is disproportionate to their effect relative to the systemic banking failures created by centralized banking systems.

I would argue that the negativity toward such things as the wildcat banking era is a result of cognitive biases like this that manifest when dealing with complex social systems.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#103

Post by jMyles » Thu, May 17, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

solean wrote: post #75

jMyles wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No legal use case found to date Even if this were true, and it's obviously not, what about the illegal use cases? Aren't they important? Bitcoin has helped people gain access to a wide variety of medicines that the state has improperly and violently prohibited. That's not nothing. And if it can do that - if, in the face of such overwhelming opposition, this technology has aided people in need, then doesn't it stand…

People default to the idea that illegal == wrong.

I don't think that's a particularly normal mindset, at least on HN. Or am I wrong?

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#104

Post by duskwuff » Thu, May 17, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

favorited wrote: post #36

gooseus wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legitimate frauds? Or "Fake it till you make it" type frauds who think their idea is legit and just inflate some numbers and their capabilities to get the money they need to prove it? What matters more, it seems to me, is that both the cryptocurrency and tech startup world are filled with bad investments which are going to make the next economic bust exponentially worse.

> think their idea is legit and just inflate some numbers and their capabilities to get the money they need to prove it how is that not "legitimate fraud?"

Because there's at least an actual idea, and an intent to execute on it. A lot of the fraudulent ICOs, on the other hand, don't even have that -- their real business plan is "take the money and run".

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#105

Post by mmgutz » Thu, May 17, 2018, 11:07 PM UTC

It basically boils down to the world is full of suckers.

I'd like to find alternatives to Bitcoin and Ethereum that are actually innovating. For most coins, forking is the extent of their technology.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#106

Post by deepnotderp » Thu, May 17, 2018, 11:18 PM UTC

hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

- The space is littered with fraud. - Websites have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars

- Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 1998

- Promoters yelling “digitalize everything” while services, development teams and internet companies are all highly centralized

- No legal use case found to date

Internet is a parasite on society.

(Clearly satire....)

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#107

Post by hudon » Thu, May 17, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #101

hudon wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Can you show me one of these blockchain-based mesh networks in production? How many users do they have? - As for voting and trade records, how do you deal with the fact that developers can fork the chain and invalidate past transactions like they did with Bitcoin in 2010 and 2013, or like they did with Ethereum in 2016? Why do you trust the developers more than your own government? And if you live in an oppressive…

I'm working on a blockchain-based mesh project. We currently have around 6 users on a test network in Oregon, but the product isn't completely done yet and no real payments work yet. Our goal is to create a system where individuals and businesses can participate in a decentralized ISP with the routers "peering" automatically and routing along the cheapest, best paths in the network. What blockchain gives us is a very…

Do you have a website with more information?

On your blockchain, if a new consensus rule is being disputed or if a bug in the consensus rules causes a fork, who has the final say, the developers or the miners?

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#108

Post by ryanlol » Thu, May 17, 2018, 11:38 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #86

ryanlol wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Infinitely easier to vet sellers than buyers.

False. Random sellers on internet forums are not easy to vet at all. The whole point of chargebacks is you don't have to vet the seller.

Sure, that’s the point of chargebacks. Everybody knows this.

What is the point you are trying to make? That you’re too dumb to not buy from “random sellers”?

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#109

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 17, 2018, 11:47 PM UTC

deepnotderp wrote: post #106

hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

- The space is littered with fraud. - Websites have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 1998 - Promoters yelling “digitalize everything” while services, development teams and internet companies are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Internet is a parasite on society. (Clearly satire....)

[deleted]

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#110

Post by CryptoPunk » Thu, May 17, 2018, 11:50 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #49

hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

First of all, no one is forcing you to use cryptocurrency. Second, your post is incredibly one-sided and misleading. >>The space is littered with fraud. And also unprecedented accessibility. In no previous era in history were so many teams of capable developers living outside of wealthy countries able to raise enough capital to pursue ambitious technology projects. Also unprecendented innovation and market evolution:…

Evidently I didn't do a good job of supporting my claims, so here is a follow up with some of the examples of teams based out of countries that traditionally do not raise significant venture capital, able to get funding for high-quality projects, thanks to cryptocurrency:

OmiseGo: a Thai-based project that received $25 million worth of cryptocurrency in their token sale to develop a decentralized exchange and payment network.

They've led development on multiple scaling initiatives, including vanilla Plasma and Plasma Cash, as demonstrated by their GitHub:

https://github.com/omisego/

Golem: a Poland-based project that received $8.6 million of cryptocurrency in their token sale to develop a decentralized market that enables people to sell their unused computing resources.

They launched on the Ethereum mainnet last month, and all of their code is released open source:

https://github.com/golemfactory

Request Network: a France-based project that received $33.6 million in cryptocurrency to develop an open payment request network and protocol. They launched their DApp on the mainnet in March, and like the others, everything is open source:

https://github.com/RequestNetwork/

I could easily list off a dozen more, but I don't have the time to do the write up for that many. My point is, the market for raising funds through token sales has become extremely competitive. There are now over 84,000 ERC20 token contracts, and 749 tokens with enough trading volume to be listed on coinmarketcap.com.

The projects raising the most funds are all more than just a whitepaper nowadays. They all have significant substance backing them. And unlike traditional venture capital, they are globally distributed, unlocking the potential of people who as a consequence of geography, would historically have had a lot of difficulty raising the necessary capital to pursue these projects.

There's still a lot more room for improvement in terms of quality, but the trend is clearly in the direction of improving quality, if you compare the top token sales today to those that were raising millions a year or two ago.