Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why the Luddites Matter

librarianshipwreck.wordpress.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 131 posts

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#101

Post by pdimitar »

wilsonnb wrote: post #100
pdimitar wrote: post #51

> you do not have to let a tech company screaming “technological progress” in your face turn you into a paragon of passivity This was the article's highlight for me. As a senior programmer I found myself saying "no" to more and more tech nowadays -- smart speakers are and will always be not welcome in my house, I carefully study mobile app permissions and deny everything but the absolutely necessary minimum (on my mo…

I get where you're coming from but to say that computers and phones aren't used to improve people's lives is ridiculous. GPS in my pocket. Internet connected calorie counting app. Streaming whatever show I want on demand instead of watching the one show that's on. Paying $120 dollars a year to listen to whatever music I want to. A calendar that's on all my devices that my wife can add things on. A speaker that can st…

Well I might have exaggerated. :)

I do make heavy use of my phone's productivity apps -- calendars, shopping lists, todo lists, and many others. What I do not use though is stuff like Facebook and the numerous mind-numbing "games" trying to strong-arm you into buying their diamond currency every 15 minutes.

I also make heavy use of Safari's ability to pull my MacBook's tabs to my iPhone or iPad, or between any of them. Really helps when you started reading something at home and then want to finish reading it while in the subway, for example.

Let's just say that I am a proponent of the idea to make my devices work for me, not me working for them. And sadly the latter is what we are nudged towards by many apps and services. It seems everybody is trying to addict us and we have to actively fight that back and make sure our devices help our lives and don't turn us into zombies. Would you concur on that point?

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#102

Post by 5DFractalTetris »

all_blue_chucks wrote: post #61
5DFractalTetris wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Follow the process chains for manufacturing all of these technologies from their constituent ores, transporting them to a suitable location, and constructing the end product of a power plant connected to a durable energy infrastructure. It cannot be done without ore tailings, a preexisting grid (which will decay and will need periodic regeneration), though maybe it can be done without fossil fuels. I still think the…

Arguing that things use resources does not support your claim that they use the same resources.

That may be true, but due to a number of scientific conclusions in the 20th century (the uncertainty principle & the incompleteness theorems), I've concluded that all knowledge is at best heuristic, and that claims to the contrary are a form of violence. I'm prepared to claim "all these use resources" but am not prepared to claim "some technologies use certain resources in a way that offer environmental benefit over other technologies, which use different resources." That seems unfair and/or dangerous.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#103

Post by mmirate »

oliv__ wrote: post #40
crazydoggers wrote: post #38

The problem I have with the Luddites was their assumption that they were entitled to their way of life. It’s a similar refrain heard today... coal miners want more protection so they can continue to live and work in cole mining towns. They just want to feed their children... something we can all related to. But if times change, then you have to change with then. You don’t get to hold the rest of society hostage... ei…

I feel like you are unintentionally making the very point of this article: the Luddites weren't simply "entitled" to their craft, they were entitled to their ability to feed their children and exist in their society. Which I think every human being is very much entitled to. Furthermore, the article specifically insists that they weren't against all technology but instead this particular technology and its use and imp…

> exist in their society. Which I think every human being is very much entitled to.

What? No! Maintaining the very existence of each human, requires resources and labor. Obtaining others' resources and labor means you are either purchasing it or stealing it, and if the latter was ethical then we'd have a society full of thieves and bereft of anyone doing any honest productive work. So while you are entitled to exchange some of your valuable things or labor for the valuable things+labor that help you stay alive ... you are most certainly not entitled to simply have them "automatically". There's no such thing as a "free lunch".

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#104

Post by mmirate »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82
crazydoggers wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entitled to feed your children... but your not entitled to force the rest of us to support your way of life to do so. The rest of us need to respond to the times and adapt. No one gets to say my job should always exist. Unless ever person can have the same guarantee, then crafts people and coal miners need to adapt like the rest of us.

What about your responsibility to care for me and my children after, through no fault of my own, you completely destroyed my sources of income? Did all my work, now obsoleted, not contribute to society's wealth and progress? I have a similar view here to what Scott Alexander explained in[0]. Humans were here first, society came later. To quote, "Society got where it is by systematically destroying everything that cou…

> complete lack of empathy.

For all I know, empathy might well be a disability that holds each of us back from doing his/her best. Why do you think it is so essential?

(EDIT: changed diction; changes are marked in italics)

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#105

Post by mmirate »

Spooky23 wrote: post #91
FrozenVoid wrote: post #67

Luddites are just people disempowered by automation and capitalism: if its cheaper to use machines than people, automation makes people effectively jobless - and if automation touches multiple sectors of economy it multiplies the effect by squeezing out people from multiple sides, reducing the labor demand significantly. If there are no alternative sources of income(welfare, UBI) that correct this, expect many more "…

I think this is where the moral issue pops up. Is handing out bread and circus a meaningful response to taking away people’s agency?

It is, if the goal is to be the next Roman Empire.

That goal, of course, is quite dubious, since it involves illiberality, authoritarianism, etc.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#106

Post by haberman »

memonkey wrote: post #63
haberman wrote: post #30

The author perceives an unjust smear against historical Luddites, and protests the way that this cuts off critical thinking about the issue of technology in our lives. They highlight that historical Luddites had noble and relatable motives, like wanting better wages to feed their families. They entreat us to think with nuance on the issue. A good and fair point. But then, just paragraphs later, the same author casual…

I think one of those points is the historical context the argument considers and the consequences that surround it and who is making the argument. For example, if an accused white supremacist in a position of power makes an argument for immigration, should we apply this charity?

The author is arguing for critical thinking. If a person makes an argument and we write it off because of that person's identity, that is the opposite of critical thinking. We could as easily write off the Luddites for being violent lawbreakers.

Like "racist", "white supremacist" is tossed around ever more liberally in modern discourse. At Evergreen this year, people left graffiti saying that science without intersectionality is white supremacy. We need to engage ideas critically precisely to determine whether charges like "accused white supremacist" are even accurate.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#107

Post by isostatic »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #80
gaius wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am never gonna give WiFi access to my TV. Ditto. My so-called "smart" TV gets HDMI inputs and that's it. An external device connects to the Internet for Netflix etc and if that device ever displeases me or becomes truly obsolete, it can be swapped out for another. But it is extremely difficult to buy a non-smart-TV above a certain size these days. All I wanted was a high quality screen and some inputs - I don't bel…

I'm not even convinced of the usefulness of extremely large screens. You end up having to sit progressively further away from them the bigger they are, which probably requires progressively larger rooms to put the TV in.

Depends on what you're watching, but to be immersed you're looking for a 16:9 screen to be 30 degrees of width (for immersive cinema you want 40")

At 8', that's 60" screen size for 30 degrees (80" for cinema)

Now I treat these with a pinch of salt, they're SMPTE values, and the last SMPTE event I went to we all agreed that in the UK 4K is pretty much pointless for 80% of the country, but SMPTE can't say that because panel manufacturers want to sell new screens every few years. Still 30 degrees feels like a fairly good number.

Assuming you have 20:20 vision, and have a 60" TV, it's only worth going to UHD over 1080 for resolution if you're nearer than 8'. For a 40" TV, it's 5'.

Now UHD comes with other benefits, namely a higher temporal resolution (interlace has gone, there's no 2160i - thank god), and higher dynamic range. I suspect they'll flog 8k panels for the Tokyo 2020 olympics, but bundle 120fps at the same time.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#108

Post by ken »

cheschire wrote: post #24

Try explaining to people that you’re a programmer who doesn’t own a cell phone, and count the seconds till this term gets raised. It’s disheartening to watch our society practically force others through attempted shaming to follow the acceptable path. I admit feebly that I bought a cell phone because the infotainment system in my car is garbage, and that seems to silence the worst of it, but I feel it’s going against…

> Try explaining to people that you’re a programmer who doesn’t own a cell phone, and count the seconds till this term gets raised.

Reporting in! Nobody has ever called me this -- to my face, at least.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#109

Post by TeMPOraL »

mmirate wrote: post #104
TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about your responsibility to care for me and my children after, through no fault of my own, you completely destroyed my sources of income? Did all my work, now obsoleted, not contribute to society's wealth and progress? I have a similar view here to what Scott Alexander explained in[0]. Humans were here first, society came later. To quote, "Society got where it is by systematically destroying everything that cou…

> complete lack of empathy. For all I know, empathy might well be a disability that holds each of us back from doing his/her best. Why do you think it is so essential? (EDIT: changed diction; changes are marked in italics )

My definition of "doing our best" involves empathy as one of its core components.

Re: Why the Luddites Matter

#110

Post by mmirate »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #109
mmirate wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> complete lack of empathy. For all I know, empathy might well be a disability that holds each of us back from doing his/her best. Why do you think it is so essential? (EDIT: changed diction; changes are marked in italics )

My definition of "doing our best" involves empathy as one of its core components.

I apologize for my imprecise diction. I should have said, "disability that holds each of us back from doing his/her best". I have edited my previous comment accordingly.
Post reply on HN