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Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

newyorker.com

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Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#101
Is capitalism a threat to authoritarianism?

The Chinese Communist Party certainly was worried that capitalism would pose a threat. Turns out the Party is doing just fine.

"capitalism", i.e., a market-based economy is flexible and can be harnessed to serve whatever purposes a society desires.

So, no capitalism is not a threat to democracy, or communism for that matter.

Let's not forgot that capitalism is a recent invention. Kings and emperors were imposing their rule on their poor subjects without the help of free market economies for most of human history.

Right wing resurgence is back because the parties of the left forgot who gave birth to them - the working class. "Working class" is anachronistic now. The children of the working class became middle class. The new working class is now the middle class, increasingly being hollowed out.

What's to stop authoritarianism:

1. remove proportional voting. Coaltions allow parties to divide up the electorate. On the other hand, forcing parties to win 50%+1 of the vote forces parties to take broad-based policies that appeal to wide swathes of the electorate.

2. Invest in a social safety net. Education, healthcare and affordable housing promote social mobility, and more importantly, give peace of mind to those in the middle class who are afraid of losing the gains made by their parents.

3. Campaign finance reform. Its easier to turn out the vote and raise funding when parties turn to identity politics because nothing is more personal - and fires one up more - than appeal to one's identity.

Identity politics is cancer on democracy. Both left and right play the game and identity politics should be banned in a liberal (the John Stuart Mill kind) democracy.

4. Ban targeted political advertising. A liberal democracy needs a shared public space, and a discussion among all voters. Targeted political advertising breaks up that public space into millions of shards. Another option could be to force parties to post publicly all political adverts for everyone to see.

I ought, indeed, need to know what a party's policies are regarding pensioners or education even though I am neither a pensioner nor have children. Why? Because my taxes will be funding such items.

5. The left needs to be remember its origins. Sounds simple eh?

6. Finally, we need to drop the left-right way of identifying policies. It reduces policies which impact people and society into a basic for/against divisive manner. There is a better way.

Enough for today :)

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#102
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you mean in the absence of any government. Neither big government nor anarchy is good for democracy, but there is a whole range in between.

Along that logic could we say that absolute private property rights nor the complete absence of exclusive use of capital goods is good for democracy, but that there is a whole range in between? It's not immediately obvious to me that either is true in terms of producing viable societies, but as these are the primary axes which determine how a society is going to function, it seems they ought to both be or neither be.

You’re right it’s either/or at a given scale.

But if you think in terms of multiscale, the difference between systems stops looking so qualitative and looks more quantitative:

Either you have an absolute property law system, and a limited commons forms on top of that through land trusts, etc.

Or you have an absolute communist system, and a limited free market forms on top of that, within a system of exceptions and exemptions.

Technically you could implement identical 50/50 socialized/private systems in both of those schemes.

In practice scale matters so which system runs which scale will affect the outcome.

But the long term outcome will inevitably be “the right things are socialized and the right things are privatized”... the two systems each do experiments and make concessions when they lose. They’ll end up being quite the same, although in the short term they are quite different. And we need both to exist to run all the experiments.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#104

I, for one, am looking forward to the nuanced, subtle discussion that will ensue here. For the love of all that is holy, please don't comment unless you've read the article and want to discuss what it is trying to say.

If I see one more comment that starts with "Short answer:"...

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#105
post #28

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

> a. that's corruption, not capitalism This is the same logic used by people who argue "That's corruption, not socialism." If everywhere there is capitalism, there is corruption, you can't simply wave it away. Edit: I originally asked "How is this argument different from 'that's corruption, not socialism'", which some seemed to interpret as a defense of socialism. I'm just pointing out the flawed logic in both argume…

It isn't, really. Socialism just seems to be far more susceptible corruption than capitalism does, if historical data is anything to go by.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#106

Simple answer: No. More nuanced answer: not exactly. Not Capitalism per-se anyway. But clearly you can see an unhealthy degree of commingling of big government and big business, in a way that is damaging to society at large. But to my mind: a. that's corruption, not capitalism b. that's an argument against big government, not an argument against capitalism

In the absence of big government, big corporate will become defacto government even more easily.

As one of the other posters mentioned, big government _helps_ create big corporations. Even the legal idea of a "corporation" with the corporate veil to protect employees & those who control it from direct liability enables mega-corporations. If we simply eliminated corporate legal entities, we might have more careful business dealings. In the absence of this idea, you'd be free to take legal action against someone who harms you.

It is a similar thing with the EPA and FDA, if a corporation meets their requirements, you can't sue them, even if they are polluting your town. It actually _enables_ a legal limit that they can pollute rather than strictly reducing pollution. The most effective anti-littering campaign was the Keep America Beautiful, Crying Indian campaign, not really the EPA.

A lot of this has to do with culture, if people aren't okay with big corporations and corruption, then they would do something different. But on a certain level, people don't really care or believe that corporate entities somehow help the economy. Two-hundred years ago, the culture was different and people made things go a bit differently; the culture we have now generally supports corporate and governmental power.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#107
post #75

"Is [Abstraction A] a threat to [Abstraction B]?" No. Human beings who put money and control of land and resources over and above the welfare of other human beings are a threat to us all and always have been. I wish sociopathic hypergreedy control freaks were viewed the same way we perceive pedophiles instead of being rewarded.

I'm confused as to why you think that just because two concepts are abstract they can't interact with each other. How do you explain that logic?

Do we claim that capitalism cannot produce hyper-greedy sociopaths? Because I would argue that it distills those people better than most systems. We need some form of modified capitalism which has some checks and balances. We did have that system for a long while, but the controlling agencies got captured by private interests and we can all plainly see the risk involved there.

But it's pure capitalism. People who say pure capitalism would have an even playing field discount the possibility that the winners on that level playing field would change the playing field to benefit them forever. What is keeping the playing field level? Not the market. The market doesn't limit systemic drift.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#108

I, for one, am looking forward to the nuanced, subtle discussion that will ensue here. For the love of all that is holy, please don't comment unless you've read the article and want to discuss what it is trying to say.

I just don't understand why people think they can refute an argument that's been fleshed out into a book by writing a couple offhand sentences in response to a long form article on the book. Presumably the author would address popularly held assumptions to the contrary of his provocative argument in the book.

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, we see this with the social media giants live in action: they may decide to terminate your account at any time for arbitrary (or none at all) reasons for your whole life, and you have no way of legal recourse. There have been way too many stories alone on HN about people losing e.g. their entire mail archives or Youtube deleting evidence videos of war crimes, to let this situation continue for any longer. G…

Telcos can’t cut you off, but ISPs can. I guess dial up is potentially still an option, but internet access is much more relevant than telephone access in 2018.

> Telcos can’t cut you off, but ISPs can.

Well, ISPs are replaceable (okay, they will offer different speeds). Get cut off, select another ISP (or mobile data).

A telco is not easily replaceable though, as the phone number is your unique handle that often cannot be changed easily (which is why you have the right to keep your number in Europe across providers)...

Re: Is capitalism a threat to democracy?

#110
post #87

Anti free market hit piece disguised as an article using questionable interpretation of history. This is propaganda for the middle and upper class.

> This is propaganda for the middle and upper class uh, how would this not be propaganda against the middle and upper classes?

Do you think poor people read the New Yorker?
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