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Interviews vs. auditions

ryanholiday.net

101–106 of 106 posts

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#101

Seems like the key to making this work is having done the legwork beforehand to know you're making suggestions that won't wind up being tone deaf. That legwork probably looks like having several conversations beforehand with people on the inside beforehand, so you actually have a basis for thinking you know what sort of problems are relevant for the decision makers. On average, that's probably something college stude…

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[1] Sharon Drew Morgen's Buying Facilitation

Its message, "buyers don't know how to buy", helps make sense of some of the controversy in this thread. If you're hiring 100 software engineers, god help you if you don't know how to hire. But if you're hiring your first CFO, say, it's more likely that you "don't know how to hire", and that a commanding (yet polite) interviewee will be helpful.

Sharon Drew Morgen emphasizes the process of questioning and the "systemic" nature of the uptake. Again, more relevant for a "big hire" than a dozens per year hire. If you're the first CFO ever hired, especially, it makes sense to help the hiring team think through how the company will adjust to having that new role and whether they've done the necessary groundwork for those adjustments.

[2] The Challenger Sale

Similar, but with an emphasis on the content. Do your research in advance to figure out how your type of widgets solves specific problems that most of your customers have.

The hiring analogue again fits best for "big hires". E.g. "since this is your first CFO, a big part of the job will be to straighten out the ad hoc financial routines that have grown up so far. I have the necessary great financial/accounting skills, but I'm also a great listener/researcher with the people skills to bring people into more constraining routines."

[1] https://buyingfacilitation.com/blog/buying-facilitation-new-...

[2] https://www.cebglobal.com/insights/challenger-sale.html

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#102
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man) > That's the important part of nearly everyone's job. Architects, graphic designers, engineers, sales people, mechanics, plumbers. Communication, like problem solving, is likewise an important part of nearly everyone's job,…

>It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man) Your argument was that almost all creative professions have auditions similar to whiteboard interviews. I pointed out that that's not true because it's only true for performance artists. You then took the discussion off top…

> Your argument was that almost all creative professions have auditions similar to whiteboard interviews

No it wasn't. Feel free to re-read my original comment[1]. My point was not that they have auditions, it's that the auditions don't closely mirror what they'll actually be doing if they get the gig (which is one of, if not the, most common complaint about whiteboarding).

However, it seems your primary concern is that the whiteboarding is done in front of an "audience" - I can sympathize with that but there's going to be an audience (by your definition of the word) regardless of the structure of the interview, i.e. your "looking through a past portfolio of work" example[2] is still discussing your work to an audience (as opposed to creating new work on the spot) and is still very dissimilar to the actual day-to-day work (N.B. I've never actually been an "illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect" but I'm pretty sure their days aren't spent just sitting around discussing their portfolios).

> Perhaps it's time to look at similar industries and spend some time trying to figure out if we are really so different instead of insisting that programming is so uniquely challenging that it requires such a controversial interview process

Perhaps I'm mistaken (I'm by no means an expert on the history of our profession) but my understanding is whiteboarding interviews are a relatively new phenomenon (i.e. last decade or two) and presumably programming interviews prior to that were more similar to many other disciplines. It seems unlikely (though certainly possible) that our entire industry would move away from that if it didn't have major shortcomings.

If you feel you have found a better way to hire developers than what most of the industry does I would encourage you not just to use it for the interviews you conduct but also to share your thoughts and findings with others via a blog or maybe even a book. Either would certainly have more potential impact than debating the issue with me in a buried thread of a day old HN discussion. It's been an interesting discussion and you've motivated me to research the history of software dev interviews, best of luck to you in your career and interviews.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17046775

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17050714

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're looking for yes men. Or maybe they hire thousands each year and want to ensure some consistency in the candidate selection criteria. This could result in hiring more yes-men, but the _intention_ may be different.

I would die a thousand deaths working in a company like that. How can you possibly build your resume if everything on starts off with, "I worked on a team that did X?" at a small company you can say "I did X, Y, Z".

Believe it or not, engineering is highly collaborative. If your dream is to work by yourself so that nobody else can take any credit, you might be better off in a different field.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#104
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a bit odd you responded to various parts of my comment but not the "But more importantly I think you missed my point..." portion (i.e. kind of silly for us to debate this audience straw man) Your argument was that almost all creative professions have auditions similar to whiteboard interviews. I pointed out that that's not true because it's only true for performance artists. You then took the discussion off top…

> Your argument was that almost all creative professions have auditions similar to whiteboard interviews No it wasn't. Feel free to re-read my original comment[1]. My point was not that they have auditions, it's that the auditions don't closely mirror what they'll actually be doing if they get the gig (which is one of, if not the , most common complaint about whiteboarding). However, it seems your primary concern is…

>No it wasn't. Feel free to re-read my original comment[1]

Sorry I wasn't very clear. When I said "similar to whiteboard interviews" I meant similar in the sense they are both different from the day to day job.

>is still discussing your work to an audience

This is true. But discussing is very different from performing. In my experience, standing at a white board while someone who already knows the answers to the questions they are asking tends to have a large impact on most people's ability to perform.

I've seen this in numerous interviews. The number of false negatives in this type of interview process are extremely high.

>and is still very dissimilar to the actual day-to-day work (N.B. I've never actually been an "illustrator, a graphic designer, a writer, or an architect" but I'm pretty sure their days aren't spent just sitting around discussing their portfolios).

But the key difference is that the work they are discussing is a product of their normal work environment.

Despite what we like to tell ourselves about wanting to see how people think, the vast majority of these types of interviews are going to push forward the people who can solve the problems they are presented with. So what Google style interviews really select for are people who happened to have recently studied the solutions to the types of problems presented during the interview and who excel at public performance. The end result is that we encourage job hunters to game the system by studying a subset of problems that don't represent the real day to day challenges of working as a programmer.

> It seems unlikely (though certainly possible) that our entire industry would move away from that if it didn't have major shortcomings.

The majority of programming jobs are at non-tech companies, non-tech companies don't tend to have Google style whiteboard interviews.

A large subset of the industry has moved to these types of interviews, but that's not an uncommon occurrence. It's happened several times in the past. Tech hiring is very fadish. Back when MS was the big company everyone wanted to work for, they used to ask insanely difficult brain teaser questions. By the early 2000s every tech company was asking these stupid riddles: You are a chef. If you had an infinite supply of water and a 5 quart and 3 quart pail, how would you measure exactly 4 quarts?; How many cars/gas stations/piano tuners/etc. are there in the USA? etc...

The fad was strengthened by Google because they used the same kinds of questions. This went on for a decade or so until Google decided brain teasers didn't correlate well with job performance. Word spread and companies stopped doing it (a few are behind the times and are still stuck on the last fad cycle).

Now the fad is repeating itself, but the companies are trying to emulate Google's newer brainteaser free 6 part whiteboard interview process.

The thing is, Google can afford an insane amount of false positives. Most companies can't, yet they still insist on cargo culting the Google interview without really understanding why.

>If you feel you have found a better way to hire developers than what most of the industry does

I do have what I consider a better way, but I certainly didn't invent it. I interview developers the way people interview architects, illustrators, and engineers. I look at past experience and portfolios, and I judge whether they can competently walk me through the projects in their portfolio.

If the applicant doesn't have much experience, or if their portfolio is too small (all of their work is covered by NDAs or something like that) I include a take home work sample test.

I've also had good experience pairing the applicant with a developer to work on a sample problem that neither one has seen (and isn't something we'll benefit from).

>you've motivated me to research the history of software dev interviews,

Our industry would be much better off if more people were willing to look at why we do things the way we do them.

>best of luck to you in your career and interviews.

Thanks, you too.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would die a thousand deaths working in a company like that. How can you possibly build your resume if everything on starts off with, "I worked on a team that did X?" at a small company you can say "I did X, Y, Z".

Believe it or not, engineering is highly collaborative. If your dream is to work by yourself so that nobody else can take any credit, you might be better off in a different field.

There is a wide spectrum between “working by yourself” and working for a large beuracratic company where you’re just a number. I can take credit for leading a lot of initiatives at the companies I’ve worked for without being in management. It’s the difference betweeen working for small companies - or larger companies with a small development shop - and massive companies.

I would never know as much as I know about networking, infrastructure, devops, architecture, security, etc. in addition to development if I spent all of my life in a large company.

Re: Interviews vs. auditions

#106
post #27
post #2

Taking control audition style may work if you're a consultant trying to convince a client to hire them, but you had better know their business backwards and forwards, and unless you're in a very well defined space (like their football coaching example), you probably don't. However, if you attempt this at a standard FAANG job interview, it is emphatically not going to work. There's a set of questions you need to work…

> However, if you attempt this at a standard FAANG job interview, it is emphatically not going to work. It's kind of "offense is the best defense" method. I haven't done many interviews, but I found a good strategy is to have some questions about the technology the company is using. Then you can both show interest and turn the interview on the head, instead of them asking you technical questions (for which you might…

I've had this happen to me as an interviewer. It seems good at first, but when I eventually bring the interview back into my 'can you design a simple data format, and then use the format you just designed' problem, I usually find the answer is no. I try not to let this bias me when I realize the candidate had led me astray, but it's hard when every candidate that leads me astray can't do my problem.
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