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The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

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Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#101

Post by shane_siebken »

Brockenstein wrote: post #99
jiojfdsal3 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you convince network giants like IBM, Intel, Cisco, Nokia, Qualcomm, Broadcom, Juniper, D-Link, among others, that net neutrality regulations are a bad idea? They currently support what Ajit Pai is doing. They have even have gone as far as crediting his repeals for greater investment into their network infrastructure.

You probably don't because net neutrality isn't an automatic win for everyone. Some companies clearly benefit from the repeal. They do have incentive to invest in their networks when they can monetize it every which way, it's now a feature they can charge for... Except maybe for a PR tidal wave so huge that anyone who opposes net neutrality is driven out of business, I don't see how you convince companies to go again…

You don't - you can only change the rules of the game so their interests are set in line with public opinion, or environmental standards, or safety practices, or whatever else.

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#102

Post by jschwartzi »

donatj wrote: post #53
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’d obviously want to ensure net neutrality then?

Net neutrality is literally constraint on how data passing through networks can be routed and shaped. It’s exactly “constraining the Internet”. It’s not “freedom” in any shape or matter. Freedom is never constraint on others. It’s a popular constraint, and people just happen to confuse and conflate “things I like/feel positivity about” and “freedom”. It’s controversial to say here but I don’t think it gets discussed…

What about my freedom to choose an ISP? If this is really about freedom and not just another cash grab, why doesn't Pai regulate that monopoly rules are illegal?

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#103

Post by Brockenstein »

jeremyt wrote: post #83
matchbok wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare? Name me one country with free-market healthcare. I'll wait. Also, your friend chose to live in that house, along with all the regulations that came with it. Spare us the sob story. You clearly don't understand why NN was put in place. All the telcos were prioritizing content, taking advantage of their monopoly power. Starting a telco is serious work, and that isn't simply due to government regulation. Try…

Veterinary care. Cheap, quick, high quality...free market and unregulated

Call us when veterinary care becomes the model for Healthcare anywhere in the world. Your statement is so ridiculous and ignorant that it's self-criticizing.

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#104

Post by [deleted] »

jordigh wrote: post #89
donatj wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Net neutrality is literally constraint on how data passing through networks can be routed and shaped. It’s exactly “constraining the Internet”. It’s not “freedom” in any shape or matter. Freedom is never constraint on others. It’s a popular constraint, and people just happen to confuse and conflate “things I like/feel positivity about” and “freedom”. It’s controversial to say here but I don’t think it gets discussed…

> Freedom is never constraint on others Of course it is, you have to constrain the powerful so they cannot take freedom away from the dispossessed. You have to restrict the freedom of Southern plantation owners to own slaves to ensure the freedom of slaves. You have to restrict the freedom of corporations to merge into a giant conglomerate so you can protect the freedom of choice of consumers. You have to restrict th…

[deleted]

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#105

Post by graphitezepp »

jeremyt wrote: post #83
matchbok wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare? Name me one country with free-market healthcare. I'll wait. Also, your friend chose to live in that house, along with all the regulations that came with it. Spare us the sob story. You clearly don't understand why NN was put in place. All the telcos were prioritizing content, taking advantage of their monopoly power. Starting a telco is serious work, and that isn't simply due to government regulation. Try…

Veterinary care. Cheap, quick, high quality...free market and unregulated

You might want to take a step back and understand that these are different markets.

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#106

Post by splintercell »

ryanpcmcquen wrote: post #78
chimeracoder wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should take a look at FOSTA if they want to know what government controlling the internet really looks like. Unfortunately, that's not a winning argument from a rhetorical perspective. Almost every single person in both the House and the Senate, of both parties, voted for FOSTA/SESTA. FOSTA and SESTA are truly abominable bills. They're arguably the most anti-gay bills passed at the federal level since DOMA in…

I made no mention of it 'not being as bad' as other bills. I stand by my statement. Net Neutrality is government regulating ISPs. ISPs are not the internet. And I think it could convert those in the anti camp. Some are against Net Neutrality because they see it as government control of the internet (it is not). They need to recognize that FOSTA is directly what they perceive Net Neutrality to be (at least in terms of…

> Net Neutrality is government regulating ISPs. ISPs are not the internet.

I've been doing some research on the prelude to Russian revolution and what I discovered is that Communist party of USSR did not start or create the concept of a brutal 'Secret Police'. The Tsar of Russia created the secret police and they had no concept of civil liberties to begin it.

When Communist party took over, they merely used this concept (and bolstered it), in addition to all the other terrible things they did.

Similarly, China didn't end up with a brutal communist party, they had a brutal Emperor, and Chinese communist party just step into that place (preceded briefly by Republic of China).

My point is, generally a tyrannical control of things begins with a more nobler or palpable reason, which eventually is taken over by bad people.

Take for instance, France has ban burqas in public places. You would think that the American right would consider this to be a noble thing and would wanna advocate it, but they won't because this gives the govt power, and eventually this power could and would be used against them.

Today you're claiming that net neutrality is govt controlling ISPs, not the Internet. But can a radical religious govt ban blasphemy on the internet by forcing the ISPs? FOSTA-SESTA were terrible things which passed, without any anti-NN side opposing them, and now nearly everyone in this thread is saying "Oh if you have a problem with NN how come you don't say anything to FOSTA-SESTA".

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#107

Post by boomboomsubban »

donatj wrote: post #53
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’d obviously want to ensure net neutrality then?

Net neutrality is literally constraint on how data passing through networks can be routed and shaped. It’s exactly “constraining the Internet”. It’s not “freedom” in any shape or matter. Freedom is never constraint on others. It’s a popular constraint, and people just happen to confuse and conflate “things I like/feel positivity about” and “freedom”. It’s controversial to say here but I don’t think it gets discussed…

This doesn't make sense. Why would the ISP's want to throttle the websites that their customers are using? Even with the lack of ISP competition, pissing off your users that much seems like a bad strategy. And they can already throttle users based on bandwidth used, how would eliminating net neutrality help them achieve this goal.

I predict the ISP's selling a default throttled connection to everything, and then for $10 more you can unthrottle Netflix or YouTube. Competitors would need to convince ISPs to allow unthrottled access to even have a chance.

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#108

Post by Brockenstein »

jeremyt wrote: post #19
jdpigeon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, man. You cherry-pick some examples of government inefficiency, but our society benefits greatly from all the rules that the government enforces in order to benefit citizens (e.g. the FDA approving new food products).

First of all, the government has its hands in almost everything, so any list small enough to fit into a hacker news comment is necessarily going to be "cherry picked". I'm not one of those people who thinks we don't need any regulations. I think they need to be a last-resort when everything else has been tried. Everything else has not been tried here. I mean, 5G and the SpaceX satellite internet plan are right around…

> I think they need to be a last-resort when everything else has been tried.

Problem is you can always always cry that not everything has been tried and perpetually put off regulation until we try this or that or this again (it might work because things are slightly different now). It's also easy to argue that existing regulations were put in place by morons who had no reason to regulate anything, and ignore all the history and precedent how civilians, businesses and even government entities can't be trusted to operate above board without a gun to their head.

Even if you're naive enough you can see the utopia with limited regulation where everyone acts responsibly and for the greatest goof, plenty of people don't really want to be subjected to the reality of that perpetual experiment. We've had generations, centuries even where people had an opportunity to do the right thing sans regulation and the minute it costs more than $0 those ideals go out the window, if they ever existed.

And certainly seems like some of the nicest places to live are fairly heavily regulated in many aspects. And places that have very little regulation tend to be hellholes of pollution and varying degrees of human suffering and environmental damage.

So where is utopia of meager regulation that can be used as a shining example?

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#109

Post by kmkemp »

Rapzid wrote: post #82
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #30

Wishful thinking, the president would not sign the bill and there's not a supermajority in the Senate and the house to overrule him. This is going nowhere.

To Trump's credit, I believe he would sign the bill. He mostly cares about winning and looking good. Also, he gives people what they want. If both houses pass the bill; "You wanted net neutrality? We now have the best net neutrality in the history of the internet. We rolled back Obama's sick and dying internet, Obama killed the internet did you know that folks?, and now we have the best most free internet EVER. Perio…

What? He is literally the person who appointed the guy who made this happen. While Trump is erratic, so no one can rule out a complete 180 at any moment, to say that is "to his credit" is ridiculous.

Re: The Senate has forced a vote to restore net neutrality

#110

Post by [deleted] »

jeremyt wrote: post #83
matchbok wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare? Name me one country with free-market healthcare. I'll wait. Also, your friend chose to live in that house, along with all the regulations that came with it. Spare us the sob story. You clearly don't understand why NN was put in place. All the telcos were prioritizing content, taking advantage of their monopoly power. Starting a telco is serious work, and that isn't simply due to government regulation. Try…

Veterinary care. Cheap, quick, high quality...free market and unregulated

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