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Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

reuters.com

101–110 of 189 posts

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#101
post #69
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has tons of intrinsic value unique to crypto currencies that traditional currencies lack. Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government. Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees. Can't do that with gold or cash. With normal currency a wire transfer costs money and moving a lot of money from a bank account usually takes days. Also you can s…

If you ever studied economics, you'd know that scarcity is not intrinsically valluable. It might be a useful feature, but intrinsic value means having a minimum value. Gold can't be created, but it had real usefulness in manufacturing. Besides, you could make a new buttcoin tomorrow, but you can't make a new kind of Atom. Stop proving that Bitcoin enthusiasts don't understand economics.

Gold can't be created, but it had real usefulness in manufacturing.

Are you saying that the intrinsic value of gold is the price manufacturers of "useful" products from gold are willing to pay for it?

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#102
post #69
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has tons of intrinsic value unique to crypto currencies that traditional currencies lack. Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government. Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees. Can't do that with gold or cash. With normal currency a wire transfer costs money and moving a lot of money from a bank account usually takes days. Also you can s…

If you ever studied economics, you'd know that scarcity is not intrinsically valluable. It might be a useful feature, but intrinsic value means having a minimum value. Gold can't be created, but it had real usefulness in manufacturing. Besides, you could make a new buttcoin tomorrow, but you can't make a new kind of Atom. Stop proving that Bitcoin enthusiasts don't understand economics.

Scarcity is absolutely an intrinsic value. Gold has value because it is relatively scarce given the difficulty to mine. In addition to being really shiny which was valued by our ancestors. There are lots of useful rare elements used in manufacturing. In terms of a currency though gold has nothing on bitcoin. Gold is hard to move, hard to validate as authentic, heavy, easy to steal, etc..

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#103
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin has tons of intrinsic value unique to crypto currencies that traditional currencies lack. Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government. Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees. Can't do that with gold or cash. With normal currency a wire transfer costs money and moving a lot of money from a bank account usually takes days. Also you can s…

I don’t think that’s what “intrinsic” means. Would Bitcoin have any value if no one else were using it?

Intrinsic properties are the things that remain even if no one is using it. So even if no one is using bitcoin it is still quick to transfer, hard to forge, difficult to create, etc.. etc..

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. He's also a value investor. He understands cash flows. Bitcoin produces no cash flow. Also, Buffet is the insider's insider. Banks work for him. He has exactly a 0.00000% chance of having his accounts frozen. The US Congress would hesitate to pick fights with his companies. When you have those kind of connections and power, you're not well placed to understand the benefits decentralized sources of authority pr…

I think he understands it better than you give him credit for. He just doesn't see a future for it. To most investors the promise of Bitcoin is the same promise of snake oil. Everything about Bitcoin is new and untested and most institutional investors abhor anything they can't quantify. Bitcoin is a huge gamble, and people like Gates and Buffet don't gamble.

It's been tested for over 10 years with the biggest bug bounty in the world.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#105
post #59

Buffet's investing strategy is, and has always been, look for the intrinsic value in a company, buy them, and then hold on forever. As part of that intrinsic value is the management teams that are running the companies. A strong team is as valuable as any other asset. When Buffet does buy a company, he'll generally leave management in place and not interfere in the day to day running of the company. Bitcoin has no ma…

Bitcoin has tons of intrinsic value unique to crypto currencies that traditional currencies lack. Most importantly it can't be created/destroyed at will by a central government. Huge sums can be transferred globally at the speed of light with very low fees. Can't do that with gold or cash. With normal currency a wire transfer costs money and moving a lot of money from a bank account usually takes days. Also you can s…

The government has taken control of Bitcoins in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. All it takes is a warrant.

Also, unlike cash, you're making your transaction history public. Any central government in the world can see this. You have to jump through a lot of hoops and use multiple blockchains to anonymize your Bitcoins.

Transfers incur a network fee with Bitcoin as well. I doubt anyone making a small purchase wants to pay fees that might be a significant percentage of, or exceed, their purchase subtotal.

You cannot send Bitcoins "at the speed of light". On average, the Bitcoin network processes 7 transactions per second.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USV has invested in CryptoKitties ( https://www.usv.com/blog/cryptokitties-1 ). This doesn't invalidate his position, but it's worth remembering he is not an objective observer in the situation; his company is positioned to directly gain from a crypto-mania.

Agreed but I think the opposite is much too prevalent. People with absolutely no experience using crypto currencies write articles bashing them without ever using them first hand. Im not advocating for them but I think to actually assess their use/value they must be tried.

That's a silly argument. You don't need to drink Coke to assess it's value. If you don't see value in Bitcoin on its face, buying a pizza with it won't change much.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#107
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Bitcoin has produced a transaction processing infrastructure that looks a lot like Amazon Web Services (something I am sure Buffett would agree is extremely valuable). " How many transactions per minute can AWS do?

> How many transactions per minute can AWS do? How many transactions can the bitcoin network do if Amazon goes out of business or cancels AWS? (hypotheticals seem relevant here, to make the point) How many transactions can your business perform if AWS blocks you, or your transaction type?

Hypotheticals aren't relevant here, though. Amazon isn't cancelling AWS anytime soon.

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many transactions per minute can AWS do? How many transactions can the bitcoin network do if Amazon goes out of business or cancels AWS? (hypotheticals seem relevant here, to make the point) How many transactions can your business perform if AWS blocks you, or your transaction type?

Hypotheticals aren't relevant here, though. Amazon isn't cancelling AWS anytime soon.

How about the not-hypothetical?

> How many transactions can your business perform if AWS blocks you, or your transaction type?

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#109
post #92

Buffet's investing strategy is, and has always been, look for the intrinsic value in a company, buy them, and then hold on forever. As part of that intrinsic value is the management teams that are running the companies. A strong team is as valuable as any other asset. When Buffet does buy a company, he'll generally leave management in place and not interfere in the day to day running of the company. Bitcoin has no ma…

I think this is basically it. Good ol' Buffet. His argument against gold is similar [1]. It's always interesting to note the fundamental differences between these types of investors. Some investors place their faith only in things -- hard assets and hard money -- gold, bonds, and now bitcoin. Others like Buffet have maintained that the best thing to invest in is other human beings, specifically human ingenuity and sw…

Your link is broken. What makes Buffet's annual letters so great though is the quality of his writing, so rather than fix your link I'll post his position on gold in his own words:

"The second major category of investments involves assets that will never produce anything, but that are purchased in the buyer’s hope that someone else – who also knows that the assets will be forever unproductive – will pay more for them in the future. Tulips, of all things, briefly became a favorite of such buyers in the 17th century.

This type of investment requires an expanding pool of buyers, who, in turn, are enticed because they believe the buying pool will expand still further. Owners are not inspired by what the asset itself can produce – it will remain lifeless forever – but rather by the belief that others will desire it even more avidly in the future.

The major asset in this category is gold, currently a huge favorite of investors who fear almost all other assets, especially paper money (of whose value, as noted, they are right to be fearful). Gold, however, has two significant shortcomings, being neither of much use nor procreative. True, gold has some industrial and decorative utility, but the demand for these purposes is both limited and incapable of soaking up new production. Meanwhile, if you own one ounce of gold for an eternity, you will still own one ounce at its end.

What motivates most gold purchasers is their belief that the ranks of the fearful will grow. During the past decade that belief has proved correct. Beyond that, the rising price has on its own generated additional buying enthusiasm, attracting purchasers who see the rise as validating an investment thesis. As “bandwagon” investors join any party, they create their own truth – for a while.

Over the past 15 years, both Internet stocks and houses have demonstrated the extraordinary excesses that can be created by combining an initially sensible thesis with well-publicized rising prices. In these bubbles, an army of originally skeptical investors succumbed to the “proof” delivered by the market, and the pool of buyers – for a time – expanded sufficiently to keep the bandwagon rolling. But bubbles blown large enough inevitably pop. And then the old proverb is confirmed once again: “What the wise man does in the beginning, the fool does in the end.

Today the world’s gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,750 per ounce – gold’s price as I write this – its value would be $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A. Let’s now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 Exxon Mobils (the world’s most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-around money (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B? Beyond the staggering valuation given the existing stock of gold, current prices make today’s annual production of gold command about $160 billion. Buyers – whether jewelry and industrial users, frightened individuals, or speculators – must continually absorb this additional supply to merely maintain an equilibrium at present prices.

A century from now the 400 million acres of farmland will have produced staggering amounts of corn, wheat, cotton, and other crops – and will continue to produce that valuable bounty, whatever the currency may be. Exxon Mobil will probably have delivered trillions of dollars in dividends to its owners and will also hold assets worth many more trillions (and, remember, you get 16 Exxons). The 170,000 tons of gold will be unchanged in size and still incapable of producing anything. You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.

Admittedly, when people a century from now are fearful, it’s likely many will still rush to gold. I’m confident, however, that the $9.6 trillion current valuation of pile A will compound over the century at a rate far inferior to that achieved by pile B."

Source: http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2011ltr.pdf

Re: Buffett bashes Bitcoin as nonproductive, thriving on mystique

#110
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he understands it better than you give him credit for. He just doesn't see a future for it. To most investors the promise of Bitcoin is the same promise of snake oil. Everything about Bitcoin is new and untested and most institutional investors abhor anything they can't quantify. Bitcoin is a huge gamble, and people like Gates and Buffet don't gamble.

It's been tested for over 10 years with the biggest bug bounty in the world.

Not security testing, I'm talking about testing economically. Decentralized currency has never been tested at scale. It's worked locally for many cultures, but never globally.
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