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Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

electrek.co

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Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#101

Post by monochromatic »

jacquesm wrote: post #16
monochromatic wrote: post #3

How is this a patent troll? Nikola isn’t a non-practicing entity. They have their own competing product. Was the Apple-Samsung patent litigation “patent trolling?”

It doesn't matter if they are a practicing entity or not: they are still clearly using their patents in a trolling fashion. After all: (1) who had ever heard of 'Nikola' before this, (2) these patents are too dumb for words, (3) good luck showing $2B in damages and (if any) and (4) if you really believe that Nikola is now associated with Tesla because of battery fires then you're silly. These people are patent trolls…

Of course it does. That’s definitional for “patent troll.”

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#102

Post by ChickeNES »

OedipusRex wrote: post #84
walrus01 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you can patent the shape of a fuselage is nuts, when it should be easy to show prior art for wind tunnel work by others going back to the early 1950s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_A...

Holy shit, I thought you were just linking to the article on the DMCA at first. (The link is to a subsection: "Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act")

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#103

Post by notlob »

DannyBee wrote: post #42

Just to note: These are design patents, not utility patents. They protect look and feel. IE you'd only infringe by having a windshield that looks the same, not a windshield that does the same thing or operates the same way, but looked different than the protectable parts.

I’d also like to add that the claimed elements appear in solid lines; broken lines are to show visible environmental structure and are not part of the claim.

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#104

Post by DannyBee »

dragonwriter wrote: post #67
DannyBee wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are design patents, not utility patents. It's not a patent on all wrapped windshields, it's a patent on windshields that look like nikola's. The fact that someone somewhere made wrapped windshields once is irrelevant here (but would not be in utility patents) To use a slightly crappy analogy, it's like patenting your ui, not your algorithm.

> To use a slightly crappy analogy, it's like patenting your ui, not your algorithm. To use a less crappy analogy, it's like the patents on smartphone case shape and layout that were at issue in Apple-Samsung.

Yeah, i tried to avoid that one because people did the same thing there ("rounded corner phones existed before!"), but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#105

Post by Tomminn »

LukeShu wrote: post #34

For those wanting to evaluate whether they think the Tesla Semi infringes on the patents, the 3 patents are: U.S. Pat. D811,944 (issued March 6, 2018) on fuselage shape http://pimg-fpiw.uspto.gov/fdd/44/119/D08/0.pdf U.S. Pat. D811,968 (issued March 6, 2018) on wrap windshield http://pimg-fpiw.uspto.gov/fdd/68/119/D08/0.pdf U.S. Pat. D816,004 S (issued April 24, 2018) on side doors http://pimg-fpiw.uspto.gov/fdd/04/1…

Okay, is it just me or are these patents insane? Literally no words or limitations as to what the patent actually covers. Just a set of pictures, with the part they would like to have "patented" emboldened.

Can't you just claim that Tesla's design is 1% different from the drawing and therefore not subject to this patent?

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#106

Post by manicdee »

jacquesm wrote: post #16
monochromatic wrote: post #3

How is this a patent troll? Nikola isn’t a non-practicing entity. They have their own competing product. Was the Apple-Samsung patent litigation “patent trolling?”

It doesn't matter if they are a practicing entity or not: they are still clearly using their patents in a trolling fashion. After all: (1) who had ever heard of 'Nikola' before this, (2) these patents are too dumb for words, (3) good luck showing $2B in damages and (if any) and (4) if you really believe that Nikola is now associated with Tesla because of battery fires then you're silly. These people are patent trolls…

Everyone who follows Tesla knows about Nikola One, the super sexy class 8 tractor that promises to be a turbine/battery hybrid long range hauler.

Shell teamed up with Airflow to build the Starship prototype which will be doing a test run this year.

Sadly, functional requirements don’t trump patent filings (Apple vs Samsung) so Nikola is free to sue everyone whose aerodynamic truck design includes a curved windscreen.

Your opinion about whether these patents are valid or should have been issued is irrelevant. The Patent Office issues parents and leaves it to the courts to determine validity and worthiness.

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#107

Post by manicdee »

jacquesm wrote: post #81
wlesieutre wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but they also had 7000 preorders in a month with $1500 deposits ($10.5 million total), so it's not like the trucking industry hasn't heard of them.

That's not the argument they make. They argue that they will be associated with battery fires because of superficial resemblance of their exterior designs.

Funnily enough it is likely to be the other way around since the Nikola has flammable fuels on board (hydrogen, CNG or LNG are options on the drawing board) so it is more likely that Nikola Ones catching fire because of turbine exhaust problems will taint Tesla.

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#108

Post by manicdee »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #93
loceng wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aerodynamics are aerodynamics, I'd argue it's an attempt to patent part of well-known physics. Likewise, Tesla already has full windshield design in their other vehicles, and it's logical they'd extend that to other vehicles in their fleet of offerings. On a side note, I don't know what patents Nikola has. They obviously don't have the brand recognition of Tesla and Elon Musk, and so they're clearly scared. I feel fo…

> Aerodynamics are aerodynamics How is this at all true? So you're saying to reach,say, a certain coefficient of drag, there's only one design?

Given design rules covering trucks being driven on highways, yes.

Start with a bumper as per regulations. It has to be the furthest forward part of the vehicle, close to ground level. No pointy aircraft noses on road transport.

Now shape the hulk to sweep air aside in clean smooth lines to sufficient height and width to clear standard sized trailers.

The design goal coefficient dictates how smooth the surface has to be, and the curvature of that surface.

What is left for the designer is flourishes like the profile of the windscreen, how many wipers there are, how they are concealed, and the shape of the door and whether the door opens to the front or the rear.

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#109

Post by manicdee »

dragonwriter wrote: post #77
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that a company can become a "patent troll" by your strict definition after trying and failing to market an actual product? Are you sure that this lawsuit doesn't signal them giving up and looking for other ways to recoup their investments?

> Are you sure that this lawsuit doesn't signal them giving up and looking for other ways to recoup their investments? They've got billions of dollars worth of preorders; there's no sign they've either had trouble marketing a product or given up on it.

They have no physical product and are still trading in dreams.

Tesla has a functioning prototype.

Which company is the practising entity?

Re: Tesla is hit by $2B patent troll case from Nikola Motors

#110

Post by manicdee »

mtgx wrote: post #29
monochromatic wrote: post #3

How is this a patent troll? Nikola isn’t a non-practicing entity. They have their own competing product. Was the Apple-Samsung patent litigation “patent trolling?”

Large companies can troll/abuse their patents against others, too. I mean just look at the sum they're asking for. $2 billion? Based on what is that value determined? Tesla hasn't even officially launched its trucks yet, nor has Nikola. Due to the ridiculousness of the lawsuit alone I consider this "trolling". Also there is plenty of prior art. That's also one of the main reasons why car companies don't sue each othe…

From my reading the supposed damages are Tesla getting thousands of preorders, with each preorder for a Tesla being exactly one lost sale for Nikola purely because the buyers want a truck with a particular windscreen design.
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