I am leaving llvm • Hacker News Board

Re: I am leaving llvm

#101

Post by rhapsodic » Thu, May 03, 2018, 2:47 PM UTC

zimpenfish wrote: post #100

rhapsodic wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever the root cause, the predominance of white males (of which I am one) in tech shows that there is a lack of representation of various groups. This ought to be blindingly obvious What I am well and truly fed up with is the implication that it is pernicious behavior on the part of white males that is responsible for this state of affairs. And that's not necessarily relevant to this particular SJW dustup, but i…

> the implication that it is pernicious behavior on the part of white males that is responsible for this state of affairs. Historically, it has been, yes. Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf GG for one prime example.)

>Historically, it has been, yes.

Not in the decades I have been observing this industry through my participation in it. In my observation, these past few decades the efforts to increase female and minority employment have far outweighed the rare instances of discrimination I've seen.

> Even today, there are pockets of white males who are virulently against anyone but them having access to their little clubhouses (cf GG for one prime example.)

If they're a "prime example", then why do I have no clue who you're talking about?

Re: I am leaving llvm

#102

Post by minitel » Thu, May 03, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

morvita wrote: post #16

GiorgioG wrote: post #6

These social justice warriors may seem well-meaning, but ultimately they are parasites. Their mission is never-ending and ultimately they overreach and this is the result. I just want to work with smart people. I don't care what gender they associate themselves with, what color they are, whether there's an equal distribution of any of these characteristics in my department. I just want to do my job and learn from sma…

I, too, dream of a world where I can work with smart people without regard to their race, sexuality, gender, whatever, but it is naive to think that we are already living in that world. Like it or not, the entire system is stacked against minorities in ways that aren't even obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege. I work as an engineer in an office of 120 people in the East Bay. There are three black peopl…

There is no evidence that anything is stacked against anyone. Only a varying level of representation by people from different identity groups.

It is much more likely that different identifiable groups have, on average, different proclivities.

If you attempt to force or overly entice people into a field, who would usually not have sought it out you're doing a disservice to everyone.

The worst part is. You do this disservice as a way of padding your own ego and sense of moral superiority. The "oppressed" groups are just mascots for your self indulgence.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#103

Post by minitel » Thu, May 03, 2018, 3:48 PM UTC

peterashford wrote: post #41

Seriously? LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave? I cannot fathom how trying to be inclusive should matter to anyone - it does not diminish you in any way to offer a hand up to others. I work in games. I have never been to GDC or PAX while I have seen many women get funding to go there on the basis of being a female in games. That isn't an attack on me personally - it's an attempt to work against hi…

> LLVM supporting minorities means that you have to leave

What a terrible misrepresentation of his position.

Outreachy is a racist and sexist organization that excludes people based on their gender and ancestry. Anyone with a shred of self-awareness and moral fortitude should be proud to disassociate with them, and with anyone who chooses to associate with them.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#104

Post by modbait » Thu, May 03, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

morvita wrote: post #38

malvosenior wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also not obvious or noticeable from a position of privilege: many, many white men have no opportunities or privilege and thus are discriminated against for simply being the same race and gender as a very thin slice of upperclass society.

While it is true that many white men come from a background where, for any number of reasons, they are not afforded the same opportunities as, say, a white boy from Cupertino, they are still given opportunities and privilege because they were lucky enough to be born a white man. I know this first-hand because I grew up in a rural farming community in Vermont that was more than 95% white and poverty-stricken. Of cours…

Unfortunately, an inevitable result of AA-type hiring is that everyone--including the candidates themselves--will wonder whether people hired this way are really up to snuff. You can censor, but you can't stop people from reasoning internally.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#105

Post by eptcyka » Thu, May 03, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

imbokodo wrote: post #97

candiodari wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. People have publicly declared that out of fear of the social justice movement they will ban people, refuse to communicate as soon as disagreement with the prevailing political view manifests. That's what's in the CoC that's objectionable. > made me think that someone had disparaged them for their political beliefs Funny how you do that in a post that disparages him for his political beliefs. But your post is no…

> Damore and Eich...THAT's why they're EXCLUDING people for their political views The actual exclusion can be seen by walking around the engineering departments of FAANG companies (or Market Street startups) and seeing virtually all male, white or Asian faces. One in eight Americans are black - where are they? That is the real exclusion. Damore was fired for effectively boasting about this exclusion. It's illustrativ…

Maybe I'm absolutely wrong, but as far as I could tell, Damore's memo did not mention race at all.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#106

Post by proactivesvcs » Thu, May 03, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

chickenfries wrote: post #83

badsectoracula wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know how that looks to other people but to me these rules look both sexist and racist.

I look at it more holistically. Men are not underrepresented in the industry and open source community. Neither are the various races not addressed by this particular scholarship. There are other programs you can apply for to get paid to work on LLVM or other open source projects, such as Google Summer of Code. I don't see how this program could actually have a detrimental effect on anyone, let alone a racist or sexi…

If the courses are run specifically for a group of people, based on their attributes, this subjects them to bias before they even walk in the door.

One way that this sort of sexist/racist approach could be detrimental is if it's served by one, or few, organisations, the courses could accidentally (or, in extremis, purposefully) be using methods that cause entrenchment of existing partitions between different groups of people. Perhaps one set of courses teaches in a certain innocent manner, and the minorities that consume the course therefore learn in a particular way, or leave out key issues.

There's also the possibility of being indoctrinated against those groups that are not welcomed; again, not necessarily on purpose - I don't intend to demonise such organisations.

Somewhat analogous to recent machine learning/algorithms being found to be prejudiced as their programmers may be unknowingly prejudiced - e.g. facial recognition working poorly for faces of people with dark skin.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#107

Post by djsumdog » Thu, May 03, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

stillkicking wrote: post #79

"[flagged]" Yet another thread that demonstrates the social justice movement's harmful influence is flagged into invisibility. Time to cite Fredrik DeBoer I guess: >“Social justice” is an awkward term for an immensely important project, perhaps the most important project, which is to make the world a more equitable, fair, and compassionate place. >But the project for social justice has been captured by an elite strat…

I saw this on Lobster and wanted to come here to see the comments and found this.

This is really sad. It shouldn't be flagged at all. It's about tech culture, the e-mail is very well written and it brings up valid things we should talk about as a community.

I've had my own posts flagged on Lobster as well, so they're not a bastion by any means.

I know it's their platform and the mods can do what they want, but it still bothers me we're silencing conversation. Meanwhile on platforms like Gab/Voat, you just get insane amounts of bat-shit crazy.

We're losing the moderate people in our society to extreme left/rightness of platforms.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#108

Post by stillkicking » Thu, May 03, 2018, 5:55 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #107

stillkicking wrote: post #79

"[flagged]" Yet another thread that demonstrates the social justice movement's harmful influence is flagged into invisibility. Time to cite Fredrik DeBoer I guess: >“Social justice” is an awkward term for an immensely important project, perhaps the most important project, which is to make the world a more equitable, fair, and compassionate place. >But the project for social justice has been captured by an elite strat…

I saw this on Lobster and wanted to come here to see the comments and found this. This is really sad. It shouldn't be flagged at all. It's about tech culture, the e-mail is very well written and it brings up valid things we should talk about as a community. I've had my own posts flagged on Lobster as well, so they're not a bastion by any means. I know it's their platform and the mods can do what they want, but it sti…

Yep. The extremeness of e.g. The_Donald on reddit is a direct result of how hostile r/politics was to anyone who didn't support Hillary. Sadly, I think the far left actually likes it this way. They want unreasonable boogiemen they can point to and demonize, so their own echo chambers can pretend to be the moderate ones.

Re: I am leaving llvm

#109

Post by chickenfries » Thu, May 03, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

rhapsodic wrote: post #91

chickenfries wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regret answering. If you're not going to engage in good faith, but instead go on some tired diatribe about tribalism, then what hope do we have for understanding each other? You claim that you want to have a discussion, but then you strawman me like that. The irony of you complaining about "tribes" while you label everyone who disagrees with you an SJW... EDIT: > So you're assuming because of my opinion, I would no…

My ability to answer you has been hobbled by the moderator's warning, so I'd rather not answer at all. Have a nice day.

It seems you are allowed to respond, just in a civil way that follows the established guidelines

Re: I am leaving llvm

#110

Post by chickenfries » Thu, May 03, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

bmarquez wrote: post #87

chickenfries wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look at it more holistically. Men are not underrepresented in the industry and open source community. Neither are the various races not addressed by this particular scholarship. There are other programs you can apply for to get paid to work on LLVM or other open source projects, such as Google Summer of Code. I don't see how this program could actually have a detrimental effect on anyone, let alone a racist or sexi…

My issue is that the scholarship lumps all the Asian groups together, as if Indians or Chinese have the same language, culture and representation in technology as Hmong or Cambodians. It just plays into racial stereotypes[1] in America. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Issues_faced_by...

I agree, as an Asian who is not Indian or Chinese, the scholarship could be made more inclusive. The invisibilty of minorty asian populations is a problem in America in general.