Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#101

Post by emodendroket » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #99

emodendroket wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The substance of the defense is mostly that his own correspondence shows it was a for-profit enterprise intended to deceive.

There would not be a need for that type of for profit enterprise if Microsoft was a Responsible Corporation and provided tools for Recylers to restore their fully licensed Computers legally under the terms of the license they (Microsoft) sold with the equipment But Microsoft wants to profit an additional $25 above and beyond their original license costs for that same system

If that was the object, why the sustained effort to imitate the official packaging, rather than just honestly admitting the discs were reproductions? Is that really the issue, when part of the defense of this guy made in the linked article is that the actual disc content was available for download for free from MS?

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#102

Post by WalterGR » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

mchannon wrote: post #97

otakucode wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Louis Rossman did an interview with Lundgren on his YouTube Channel. Lundgren is no hero. He was not just burning some recovery CDs. He was actively seeking to deceive, actively telling his customers (other PC recyclers) that he was selling them legitimate recovery CDs manufactured by Dell, Lenovo, etc. Microsoft did not go to the government. The government went to Microsoft. It called Microsoft people as expert witn…

+1 for mentioning the interview, but a link would've been helpful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7hnVYMoctM Microsoft did claim they were worth $20, according to Gov. Exhibit 17. Most of your argument is thus false. District and appellate judges don't always make the right decisions, but that's what rehearings and the Supreme Court are for.

Could you please link to a time code or mention which time to seek to? The video is 2 hours long.

While I'm here, here are the popular discussions about this story from the last week:

“Microsoft attempts to spin its role in counterfeiting case” - 195 points - 2 days ago - 144 comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16946478

“Microsoft Convinces Judges to Jail Man for Copying Software It Gives Out Free” - 71 points - 3 days ago - 22 comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16940722

“ ‘E-waste’ activist gets 15 months in prison for selling Windows restore disks” - 86 points - 4 days ago - 11 comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16924587

“E-waste recycler loses appeal on computer restore disks, must serve prison term” - 388 points - 5 days ago - 257 comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16921634

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#103

Post by WalterGR » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

mchannon wrote: post #45

sailingparrot wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So Microsoft lied to the US government about the value of what was being "stolen", and got the US government to foot the bill of prosecuting the case. Source for that? Microsoft is clearly denying this, so who is right?: > "Microsoft did not bring this case: U.S. Customs referred the case to federal prosecutors after intercepting shipments of counterfeit software imported from China by Mr. Lundgren." and > "Customs…

Source that Microsoft lied? Gov Exhibit 17. There are probably many more. There are about three or four lies on there, which anybody familiar with the computer recycling business can confirm. Microsoft had no potential sales of genuine operating systems through this conduct because any license these discs would have been useful for was affixed to the computer and not included with the counterfeit discs. Hence, the lo…

Source that Microsoft lied? Gov Exhibit 17. There are probably many more.

I'm not finding this via Google searches... What incantation should I use?

Which parts of the exhibit are you referring to?

[edit: I did find this, which is from the defense. The defense doesn't claim that Microsoft stated that the value of each restore disk was $25.

"The Government provided no proof of the price at which the Microsoft software was sold in any market without a license or product key. Indeed, the Court had no proof that Windows software was ever sold in any market at any price without a license or product key. Thus, the Court had no basis to determine the retail value of the infringed item, i.e., the Microsoft software without a license or product key. With no proof of the retail value of the infringed item, the Court was left to assume that the Windows software without a license and product key had the exact same retail value as an installation disc with Windows software, a license, and a product key sold to refurbishers. In concluding that the infringement value of the software was $25 - the price charged to refurbishers for an installation disc with copy of the Windows software together with a license and a product key – the Court apparently did so." https://resource-recycling.com/e-scrap/wp-content/uploads/si... ]

There are about three or four lies on there, which anybody familiar with the computer recycling business can confirm.

For those of us who aren't familiar with the computer recycling business (myself included) could you confirm them?

The rest of your comment is speculation.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#104

Post by lolc » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

tialaramex wrote: post #100

lolc wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not even that. The appropriate comparison would be copying the marketing pamphlet verbatim and bringing your own cheese to the booth. Microsoft is arguing that the cheese could have been poisoned. And that people were buying less cheese because of his efforts.

The government, whose prosecutors brought this case - aren't arguing that the cheese "could have been poisoned" except in the sense that we have no idea what counterfeiters might or might not get wrong in the process of knocking off a product and we _don't want to find out_ which is why counterfeiting is a criminal offence. Their argument is that Lundgren's product, a CD that says it's a Windows restore CD from Dell,…

As far as I understand the accused trafficked forgeries of Dell recovery CD. These CD do not include a Windows License and Microsoft does not sell such CD either. The article is lamenting that very misunderstanding was made by the court.

Now you're saying the court got it right and the accused was actually selling Windows licenses. Who is right?

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#105

Post by lolc » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #96

lolc wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You go use the word "free" however you want. And if you refer to software that is for free as "free software", expect to be misundertood.

>And if you refer to software that is for free as "free software", expect to be misundertood. 1. For the majority of the population, I will not be misunderstood. Only confusing for a certain crowd (FSF advocates). But that's a hole they dug themselves into, so my sympathies are wanting. 2. Let's be frank: Your statement applies more to people who use it the way you prefer, as opposed to my usage. If it weren't the ca…

The original title on Hacker News here ended with something like "distributing free software". I took issue with that because it was about distributing copies of Windows which is not by any definition free software.

I wasn't protesting the general case, just this instance. If the title hadn't been misleading to me, I wouldn't have cared. I don't generally care about licensing issues around Microsoft Windows. Though this one is an interesting case.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#106

Post by Hamuko » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #73

jmull wrote: post #68

This article is quite disingenuous. The lie is in the first sentence: "...15 months in prison for selling discs that let people reinstall Windows on licensed machines . (emphasis mine) The prosecution successfully argued the machines these discs were meant to be sold with did not have valid Windows licenses (and that these discs were part of an effort to avoid purchasing them). You will want to find another article o…

They only don't because Microsoft wanted to double-dip. They want one license fee when the computer is originally sold, and then a second ($25) every time it is resold. The problem with that is that Microsoft cannot have it both ways, either the license is tied to the physical hardware (in which case recyclers don't need to pay $25) or it isn't (in which case people should be able to resell them on eBay).

Microsoft wants the $25 if you resell a computer without a Certificate of Authenticity and the recovery media (if it came with one). If you don't have both, then according to Microsoft, the computer is unlicensed, as the Certificate of Authenticity is not the same as a license.

Of course, it would be easy to pass off refurbished machines as having valid licenses if you had the Certificate of Authenticity and a disc that looks like a genuine Dell recovery disc for Windows Whatever with holograms and all that jazz.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#107

Post by Hamuko » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

m-p-3 wrote: post #47

notahacker wrote: post #5

15 months sounds excessive, but the fact the software could be downloaded by customers for free is not a mitigating factor in a guy attempting to make a profit making it look as much as possible like a paid for product sold by Dell/Microsoft...

He never sold any licenses, he sold the medium and the convenience of having the installation software easily available for his customers. The OEM license attached to the hardware is still necessary to use the medium (which AFAIK is tied to the hardware, not the user), so I do not personally see any monetary loss for Microsoft. The only way Microsoft (or Dell, etc) lost money is because they charge an absurd price of…

He didn't sell licenses, that is true.

What he did sell was a way for refurbishers to avoid buying a refurbishing license from Microsoft if they had a computer with a Certificate of Authenticity but no recovery disc. If you do not supply the recovery disc with a refurbished machine, you do not have a valid Windows license according to Microsoft. And if you do not have a valid Windows license for the refurbished machine, Microsoft expects you to buy one for 25 United States dollars, which is the value for each counterfeit disc in this case.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#108

Post by Hamuko » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

tossaway1 wrote: post #4

Hamuko wrote: post #2

If Lundgren was counterfeiting software that you could "download for free", then why did he and Bob Wolff go around buying genuine Dell recovery discs in order to produce their own copies?

The article addresses this: Of course, if you don’t have a DVD burner (remember, this was a while back — these days you’d use a USB drive), you’d have to get one from a friend who has one, a licensed refurbisher, or your manufacturer (for instance, Dell or Lenovo) for a fee.

That is not in any way related to this.

Why did Lundgren buy a genuine Dell recovery disc if the software was available for free online? There would be no need to buy a genuine Dell recovery disc to serve as the master disc for his cloned discs.

Of course, I do know the answer as I am not naïve: the Dell recovery disc is not the same as the Microsoft.com ISO download you can procure. The Dell disc contains an installation of Windows + some Dell extra content that you would expect to have in a Dell disc. And if he was to download the ISO from Microsoft and burn it onto a DVD, it would produce a checksum that wouldn't be identical to the Dell recovery disc, revealing it as a counterfeit.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#109

Post by Hamuko » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

Karlozkiller wrote: post #20

scandox wrote: post #6

Did he or did he not seek to make a meaningful profit from this activity? I can't see information on that in the article. Also did he use the downloadable file or did he actually burn from an existing DELL disc? I think there would be software differences potentially there right? I got a reinstallation media sent out from DELL and it definitely seemed customised.

According to what he says himself in an interview he was selling the CDs 25 cent a piece after paying for production in China and shipping to the US. I don't think you can get much meaningful profit from that.

The 25 cents a piece is total bullshit. His appeal sentencing pretty clearly states how his argument was that the value of damages for each disc was $4, which was the price he was selling them for.

The 25 cents a piece is just some PR bullshit Lundgren is trying to spin in order to come out as the good guy here as he poses in pictures wearing a fedora while he sleeps on a bed made out of counterfeit Dell recovery discs.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#110

Post by tripletao » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:26 PM UTC

tripletao wrote: post #18

His punishment seems disproportionate and stupid (like, why are we spending money to lock him up instead of fining him more?); but he clearly intended to make disks that buyers would think were factory originals, and knew that he was breaking the law. From his email: > I can look in to the missing boxes - Usually in my history - Customs just ships them to you 3 weeks later. > If they call you - play stupid and just t…

I'm replying to my own comment to note that he claims these documents are not authentic, and were forged by a former business partner who wanted to cut a better deal for himself. He says the government took all his computers, lost all his computers, and found the doctored emails on the partner's computer. He says he no longer had access to the mail server. He isn't super clear on the specifics of what's forged and what's not, beyond that the prices are forged. He doesn't seriously question that he intended customers to mistake the CDs for factory originals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7hnVYMoctM&feature=youtu.be...

Pretty weird--like, if this guy is going away on forged evidence, then isn't that a bigger story than the questionable valuation? But the alternative is that he's more or less a compulsive liar. You can judge his credibility for yourself in the interview; but at least to me, this is not a guy who should be testifying in his own defense. If anyone has the trial transcripts / motions / etc. that deal with this, then I'd love to see.

Also: Microsoft seems to claim that the original license disappears when the original media (CD, or restore partition) are lost. I don't know enough about the applicable law, and I haven't read the license, so I don't know if this is true. If this is true, then anyone using his CD (or anyone downloading the image straight from Microsoft, for that matter) is breaking the license. There is no technical measure to enforce this, though. I presume this is the basis for Microsoft's claim that the CD was worth $25.