Be Good • Hacker News Board

Re: Be Good

#101

Post by ericb » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:19 AM UTC

mhb wrote: post #93

andres wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, we don't view them as evil (or ourselves as good, for that matter). We have had good experiences ordering from Digi-Key as well. They have a lot of parts in stock and they ship things right away so we don't have any qualms with their service. I think that what frustrates Paul is that Digi-Key is actively trying to block innovation in part search because they don't want price competition. Part search today…

Part search today is like travel search in 1995. I used to go straight to American Airlines to buy tickets and that was fine but how much nicer is it to buy tickets online now? I even travel more because it is easier to find things. It is definitely nicer to buy tickets, but the race to the bottom in pricing has made the flying experience itself (not just the airport) a misery. There are predominately two options - b…

The airline industry is a capital intensive industry with a history of unprofitability and price competition that predates the internet.

As the joke goes, to become a millionaire is simple. Start as a billionaire and buy an airline.

Re: Be Good

#102

Post by ericb » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:24 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #98

andreyf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is porn evil?

Same way as drugs and alcohol are evil. They create addictions and harm the users. Sure, everything can be used in moderation, but are moderate users of these things the exception or the rule?

I'd like to see some empirical evidence that moderate users are the exception, not the rule. Man smokes weed once a month in his home is not nearly so great a headline as "crack addict leaves baby at grocery store."

Re: Be Good

#103

Post by yters » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:25 AM UTC

yters wrote: post #98

andreyf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is porn evil?

Same way as drugs and alcohol are evil. They create addictions and harm the users. Sure, everything can be used in moderation, but are moderate users of these things the exception or the rule?

So you don't think men have a significant problem with pornography addiction, and/or viewing porn has bad effects on relationships between men and women?

Despite it being a conservative claim, and consequently people don't like it, the breakdown of the family is a very big problem.

Re: Be Good

#104

Post by yters » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:31 AM UTC

tlb wrote: post #61

ctkrohn wrote: post #17

This isn't a new idea at all; in fact it's as old as capitalism itself. Adam Smith was one of the first to recognize that capitalism helps align the self-interest of the entrepreneur (selfishness) with the general interest of others (charity): "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to t…

Smith is is saying that customers can depend on businesses providing value out of their own self interest (in order to make money.) Graham is saying that as a business, you'll be most successful if you spend your energy trying to be good to your customers, rather than, say, trying to squeeze a little more money from them. Smith: greed => good service => profit & happy customers Graham: benevolence => wonderful servic…

It really depends on your definition of self interest too.

Benevolent people either think their benevolence benefits them materially, or gain satisfaction from altruism. Both are forms of self interest.

Re: Be Good

#105

Post by ericb » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:33 AM UTC

eb wrote: post #6

zkinion wrote: post #4

This article is nice, and I agree with the part about momentum gained by holding to greater values than simply building a successful company. However, PG doesn't mention the incredibly successful startups that start out with evil/crime and then later go good: ones that start with spammy & unethical means to get initial users and pirated content startups. I think most people strive to do good, but the world itself is…

Can you provide some examples?

American Student Assistance began as a traditional student loan guarantor that made more money when people defaulted--such is the payout structure in the student loan industry. They got paid for defaults, and paid for harassing people who defaulted.

Then they put together a program with the US government that made them money when they prevented people from defaulting, thus reversing the incentive. They built out reminder programs, tested, iterated and improved their default rate to one of the lowest in the industry.

Of course, the bush administration is ending the "Voluntary Flexible Agreement" program which made this possible.

Re: Be Good

#106

Post by yters » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:41 AM UTC

ericb wrote: post #102

yters wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same way as drugs and alcohol are evil. They create addictions and harm the users. Sure, everything can be used in moderation, but are moderate users of these things the exception or the rule?

I'd like to see some empirical evidence that moderate users are the exception, not the rule. Man smokes weed once a month in his home is not nearly so great a headline as "crack addict leaves baby at grocery store."

Uh, how much does the adult entertainment industry make compared to any other internet industry? I thought it was a truism that the internet runs on porn...

Here's something I found by a quick google:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11640411/

Even without stats, it just seems like something that's blatantly obvious. It's a very common problem with couples for the guy to be lusting after other women. We, as a culture, are inundated with erotica. The internet allows people to look at pretty much anything they want in privacy. There are loads of adds for web history cleaners. Etc.

It just doesn't seem like a hard conclusion to draw...

Re: Be Good

#107

Post by Readmore » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:45 AM UTC

This sounds a lot like my startup Embought (www.embought.com). After making the decision to donate 50% of all profits to charity it gives me another reason to 'not die'. There are people out there other than myself that can benefit from me making this project work, and that's a powerful motivator.

Re: Be Good

#108

Post by pg » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:51 AM UTC

mhb wrote: post #89

pg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me there is more to being good than having good customer service, which is the only evidence you mention here.

It didn't seem like all that much more evidence was required to refute your one piece of evidence that Digi-Key is evil because they don't want Octopart to list their prices. Even if I had no evidence, my default assumption would be that they were good until confronted with significant evidence that they were evil. And between good and evil there's a nice-sized neutral middle area which it appears you have transited…

The problem was not so much how little evidence you supplied as how irrelevant it was. I expect Philip Morris has good customer service too. When convenience stores order cigarettes from them, they probably deliver reliably. Would you argue that that makes Philip Morris a good company, ethically?

Your theories about why Digi-Key wouldn't want their prices to be publicly known are very inventive, but Occam's razor suggests the explanation is what is usually is in such situations: They are trying to suppress competition.

Re: Be Good

#109

Post by pg » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 4:58 AM UTC

mhb wrote: post #92

pg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me there is more to being good than having good customer service, which is the only evidence you mention here.

Would you consider Octopart evil if they deny my request for their code/data so I that I can duplicate their site in order to provide an improved customer/vendor experience?

That would be more like asking Digi-Key for the contents of their warehouses.

Re: Be Good

#110

Post by eb » Mon, Apr 21, 2008, 5:00 AM UTC

vesterr wrote: post #63

modoc wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that "the very best hackers" can pick and choose. "Up-and-coming" != "the very best". Maybe they'll get to be the some of the very best with some experience (work or project) under their belt, and at that point, if it's great code/work, they can absolutely get a job (almost) anywhere. I'm not sure what the rest of your points have to do with the PG quote exactly. Yes there are many factors around what job w…

You said: "Up-and-coming" != "the very best". I'm not talking about up-and-coming skill-wise , I'm referring to level of fame or notoriety. What it really boils down to is whether you have enough money to just work on what interests you vs. what pays the bills. "they can absolutely get a job (almost) anywhere." Not really. There are far more jobs that require skills you don't have than skills you do.

You're taking the point about a hacker being able to get a job anywhere far too literally. He has his pick among the top software companies and startups but, no, he probably won't land a job designing rockets for NASA.