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For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

jeremykun.com

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Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#101
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it was a quote from the article seemed clear in the post in which the quote was presented, so while I agree that it can be difficult to clearly present quotes in some situations on HN and a good blockquote formatting facility would be preferable, I don't think that's really a problem here.

As I read the comments on this post, the top reply contains multiple mathematical symbols which aren't rendering on my recent Android phone. You can't pretend that HN has a huge proactive team working on these issues. I'm loathe to infer that you think that the problem is "me" because I think the underlying question is whether the comments should be a friendly place for people who do not have time or inclination to r…

[deleted]

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#102
post #94
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solutions to equations in multiple variables are ordered tuples. For instance, x y + 2 = 0 has infinitely many solutions. One of them is (1, -2).

I feel like that example counters your claim in two different ways. First, (1, 2) only makes sense if you assume that x is first and y is second, or in other words that they correspond to X_1 and X_2 for some vector X. This is probably a reasonable assumption for x and y, but what if you have some other arbitrary choice of variables? a ρ + 2 = 0 Then the only unambiguous way to write a solution is with explicit label…

Polynomials in multiple variables always have the variables ordered. Sometimes the ordering is not important or explicitly stated but in reality they are supposed to be ordered.

If we start with x y + 2 = 0 we can apply the function

f(x) = x - 2

to both sides of the equation. This gives us the equation

x y = -2

This is a different equation than the one we started with but these two equations have the same solution set. Can go a step further and transform this equation to

y = -2/x

This equation has the same solution set as the first equation. All three equations are equivalent. Solutions are ordered pairs of numbers.

Commonly in basic courses like calculus we tell students that the last form is preferable and we write solutions as (x, -2/x). We call this set the graph of the equation but really it’s the solution set of the equation.

In algebraic geometry x y + 2 = 0 is preferable. The solution set is called an algebraic variety. The solutions are ordered pairs in affine space.

The rules of algebra, as taught in low level courses, are rules that allow one to transform a given equation into simpler equation. In one variable the goal is to end up with something like x = 3 because such an equation is easy to solve. The solution is the 1-tuple 3.

Not all sets are recursively enumerate so using enumerate as you did can cause problems.

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#103
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s assume we are talking about Q, the rationals. x+3 is an element of Q[x]. This element of Q[x] defines a natural map from Q to Q. The equation x+3 = -2 is equivalent to finding the pre-image of -2 of this natural map. x is actually just, in the language of computer science, syntactic sugar. In reality x+3 is really the infinite tuple (3, 1, 0, 0, .....)

>x+3 is an element of Q[x]. I think this is incorrect. Lets continue to assume we are working over Q. Without further context I would take "x+3=-1" to mean that x,3, and -1 are all elements of Q. 3 and -1 being the obvious elements; and x being an a-priori unknown elements which we can easility derive to be 2. Notably, x+3 is not a polynomial in the technical sense. If we wanted to consider x+3 a polynomial, we would…

x+3 is an element of the polynomial ring Q[x]. More precisely it is syntactic sugar for the infinite tuple

(3, 1, 0, 0, ....)

A polynomial ring in one variable is an infinite direct sum of the base ring with addition component wise and multiplication defined in a certain way. The expression x+3 meets the definition of a polynomial.

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#104
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>x+3 is an element of Q[x]. I think this is incorrect. Lets continue to assume we are working over Q. Without further context I would take "x+3=-1" to mean that x,3, and -1 are all elements of Q. 3 and -1 being the obvious elements; and x being an a-priori unknown elements which we can easility derive to be 2. Notably, x+3 is not a polynomial in the technical sense. If we wanted to consider x+3 a polynomial, we would…

x+3 is an element of the polynomial ring Q[x]. More precisely it is syntactic sugar for the infinite tuple (3, 1, 0, 0, ....) A polynomial ring in one variable is an infinite direct sum of the base ring with addition component wise and multiplication defined in a certain way. The expression x+3 meets the definition of a polynomial.

I know what a polynomial ring is. I am not questioning that the string "x+3" can be interpreted as an element of Q[x].

What I am questioning is the necessity to interpret "x+3" as an element of Q[x].

>The expression x+3 meets the definition of a polynomial.

Only if you take x=(0,1,0,...) and adopt the convention that any member q of the base field Q is assumed to represent qx^0 = (q,0,0,...).

That is to say, x+3 only meets the definition of a polynomial because you insist on interpenetrating it as such.

However, we can also handle "x+3=-1" without ever defining the notion of a polynomial.

Eg, we can say, suppose x \in Q such that "x+3=-1". From this premise, we can derive presisly what specific element of Q x must be.

In a more general setting, we might only be able to derive a set of potential values that x could have, or derive that x cannot possibly exist.

As I mentioned in my prior comment, I see no reason to intererperet the "x+3" in "x+3=-1" as a polynomial. If we were to do so, the question would be asking: find t \in Q such that (x+3)[t]=(-1)[t]. Where (g)[t] is polynomial evaluation.

Applying the definition of polynomial evaluation, we would get that the above equation implies: t+3=-1.

Are you now going to insist that "t+3" is a polynomial. Bearing in mind that we have defined t to be an element of Q, which was necessary to apply it as the second argument of polynomial evaluation; and we only got "t+3" as the output of polynomial evaluation, which is defined to result in an element of the base field.

We could modify are notion of polynomial evaltuation to instead be of the form R[x] X R[x] -> R[x], which also gives us (for free) the ability to apply polynomials to other polynomials. But if we were to do this, then when we say that the solution to "x+3=-1", is -4, we are taking "-4" itself to be a polynomial.

In practice this is fine (we identify the base field with the subring of degree 0 polynomials all the time). However, this entire approach breaks down when you start working with functions that do not fit within the framework of polynomial rings.

For instance, suppose I said that "(x+3)! = 120". Are you still going to insist that "x+3" is a polynomial?

What if I define a function id: Q -> Q. In the equation "id(x+3) = 2, are you still going to insist that "x+3" is a polynomial?

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#105
post #68
post #56

Some more food for thought on the meaning of =, from Girard's "Proofs and Types" [0]: > There is a standard procedure for multiplication, which yields for the inputs 27 and 37 the result 999. What can we say about that? A first attempt is to say that we have an equality "27 x 37 = 999". This equality makes sense in the mainstream of mathematics by saying that the two sides denote the same integer [...] but it misses…

Just a bit of background: Girard is paraphrasing Frege's famous paper On Sense and Reference [1] which is an investigation into the meaning of equality. As a result of that investigation, Frege shows that terms in a language have at least two kinds of meanings (sense and reference or denotation), which Girard presents in a programming context. [1]: http://www.scu.edu.tw/philos/98class/Peng/05.pdf

Oh man, I took a great class on that paper in college. Spent the whole quarter reading it, yet lecture was always interesting.

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#106
Geometry distinguishes between equivalence and value. An "angle" isn't its degrees, but the geometric figure (two rays or segments meeting at an end-point of each). It's the measure of the angle that is the degrees.

You don't say "angles are equal" - you say they are congruent. It's their measures that are "equal".

Although congruency implies measure equality, it doesn't really mean that, but that the shapes are the same (can be rotated/translated to coincide).

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#107
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

x+3 is an element of the polynomial ring Q[x]. More precisely it is syntactic sugar for the infinite tuple (3, 1, 0, 0, ....) A polynomial ring in one variable is an infinite direct sum of the base ring with addition component wise and multiplication defined in a certain way. The expression x+3 meets the definition of a polynomial.

I know what a polynomial ring is. I am not questioning that the string "x+3" can be interpreted as an element of Q[x]. What I am questioning is the necessity to interpret "x+3" as an element of Q[x]. >The expression x+3 meets the definition of a polynomial. Only if you take x=(0,1,0,...) and adopt the convention that any member q of the base field Q is assumed to represent qx^0 = (q,0,0,...). That is to say, x+3 only…

Only if you take x=(0,1,0,...) and adopt the convention that any member q of the base field Q is assumed to represent qx^0 = (q,0,0,...). That is to say, x+3 only meets the definition of a polynomial because you insist on interpenetrating it as such.

That’s what we mathematicians do. In the context of the original post it is absolutely clear that x+3 is a polynomial. There is no other reasonable interpretation.

When you write things like:

Notably, x+3 is not a polynomial in the technical sense. If we wanted to consider x+3 a polynomial, we would be asking for the t value such that (x+3)[t] = (-1)[t]. Where (-1) is also a polynomial, and (g)[t] is the map Q[x] X Q -> Q given by standard polynomial evaluation.

it gives the impression that you don’t know what a polynomial is. The second sentence I quoted is not true. (EDIT: see note below, my interpretation of what was written was wrong.)

Of course if you change context then different interpretations arise. Which of course is the whole point of my original post. Like all spoken languages mathematical language is nuanced. Things must be interpreted in context.

When presented with the equation x+3=-1 x+3 is a polynomial. -1 is a polynomial.

I gather you do not think x^2 - x + 1 = 0 is a polynomial equation. Is x^3+4x a polynomial? Is there any other reasonable interpretation using accepted mathematical conventions? Perhaps you don’t think 2/(x+3) is a member of R(x). What is it a member of then?

Edit:

x+3 is a polynomial that defines a natural map from R to R. To solve the equation x+3=-1 is asking for the pre-image of -1 of this map. This is what it means to solve this equation. It’s solution set is an algebraic variety. I see no other reasonable interpretation. The whole branch of algebraic geometry is about precisely this. Studying zero sets of polynomial equations.

That we teach people rules they can apply to find the answer does not detract that what is really going is as I’ve described and as you did describe with the second quoted text.

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#108
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what a polynomial ring is. I am not questioning that the string "x+3" can be interpreted as an element of Q[x]. What I am questioning is the necessity to interpret "x+3" as an element of Q[x]. >The expression x+3 meets the definition of a polynomial. Only if you take x=(0,1,0,...) and adopt the convention that any member q of the base field Q is assumed to represent qx^0 = (q,0,0,...). That is to say, x+3 only…

Only if you take x=(0,1,0,...) and adopt the convention that any member q of the base field Q is assumed to represent qx^0 = (q,0,0,...). That is to say, x+3 only meets the definition of a polynomial because you insist on interpenetrating it as such. That’s what we mathematicians do. In the context of the original post it is absolutely clear that x+3 is a polynomial. There is no other reasonable interpretation. When…

>The second sentence I quoted is not true.

I assume you are refering to the sentence:

> If we wanted to consider x+3 a polynomial, we would be asking for the t value such that (x+3)[t] = (-1)[t]

Bearing in mind that the example I have in mind is the equation "x+3=-1" with the solution of "2", in what sense in the above sentence not true?

>When presented with the equation x+3=-1 x+3 is a polynomial. -1 is a polynomial.

Fair enough. In that case, I assume you would consider the equation "x+3=-1" to be false, as it is clear that (3,1,0,0,...) != (-1,0,0,...). Unless of course you are asking, as I had suggested, that you are looking for the particular element at which polynomial evalutation yields an equal result on both sides. If this is the case then, as far as I can tell, you are introducing the machinery of formal polynomials for the sole purposes of overloading the "=" symbol in a confusing way.

>I gather you do not think x^2 - x + 1 = 0 is a polynomial equation.

Define "polynomial equation" If you are asking if I would consider that an equation taking place in R[x], then (absent some other context) the answer is no. Even with other context I would say that "x^2 - x + 1 = 0" is false as a polynomial equation. You might be able to get me to call equations done in the quotient ring R[x]/ polynomial equations, in which case "x^2 - x + 1 = 0" would be both a polynomial equation and true at the same time.

If you are asking if I would call "x^2 - x + 1 = 0" in an informal setting, then the answer is yes. However, I do not see how this is relevant, as the whole point of this comment chain was the formal notion of polynomials.

>x^3+4x a polynomial?

Informally, yes. Formally, it depends on context. However, absent some context, I would not consider "x^3 +4x" to be a formal polynomial.

>Is there any other reasonable interpretation using accepted mathematical conventions?

Yes, x^3 +4x is the member of the base ring corresponding to "(x * x * x) + (4 * x)", where x is some other member of the ring.

>Perhaps you don’t think 2/(x+3) is a member of R(x). What is it a member of then?

I am glad you asked. I believe my above answer regarding x^3+4x still applies. However, let me ask you: Is x^3+4x a member of R(x)?

>What is it a member of then?

Again, depending on context. Without context, I would consider 2/(x+3) to be a member of R.

Re: For mathematicians, = does not mean equality

#109
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it was a quote from the article seemed clear in the post in which the quote was presented, so while I agree that it can be difficult to clearly present quotes in some situations on HN and a good blockquote formatting facility would be preferable, I don't think that's really a problem here.

As I read the comments on this post, the top reply contains multiple mathematical symbols which aren't rendering on my recent Android phone. You can't pretend that HN has a huge proactive team working on these issues. I'm loathe to infer that you think that the problem is "me" because I think the underlying question is whether the comments should be a friendly place for people who do not have time or inclination to r…

Just to be clear, I am literally saying that IMHO it should be OK to converse in the comments without reading the link in question. If HN can't accommodate this, it's not a friendly platform for humans.
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