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The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

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Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#101

Post by ams6110 »

Declanomous wrote: post #89
floatingatoll wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s an interesting ethics question here: If your ship’s location places you near a hurricane, should they just quietly upgrade you for free tenporarily so that you don’t sink?

They should at least place a large warning stating that the data is not safe to use for navigational purposes.

I'm sort of surprised that data from a source like that is used. Have you ever seen the weather data that airline captains use? It looks like this:

KORD 050251Z 26006KT 10SM SCT110 M02/M09 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP232 T10171089 53009

That's the current weather conditions for Chicago O'Hare.

Looks like gibberish to you and me but airline captains know what it means and they know how old the observation is. Captain has ultimate authority on the ship, but also ultimate responsibility. It was his job to know what that weather report meant. And surprising to me if he didn't, since by other accounts he was experienced, organized, and safety-conscious.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#102

Post by leesalminen »

jacquesm wrote: post #59
korethr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders. I'm wondering if the 1st officer similarly faced bad consequences for doing the right thing and taking command -- mutiny charges are still a thing, aren't they?

There's a movie that reviews that situation in a navy (nuclear submarine) context, it's called 'Crimson Tide'.

Not sure why you’re being downvoted, Jacques. We’ve been in a couple spats here but I’ve always respected your thoughts and opinion. Have (yet another) upvote :).

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#103

Post by crooked-v »

gregschlom wrote: post #51

I don't see anyone here commenting on this, but there's an interesting software / UI angle in this story: the captain preferred the fancier, animated-map-style weather reports from a 3rd-party company (B.V.S. reports) to the more terse text-only reports from the National Hurricane Center (sat-C reports). Turns out, the B.V.S reports were using raw data that was 10 to 12 hours old - and they didn't explicitly mention…

The bit you skipped:

> He went down to his stateroom after his conversation with Schultz, and when he returned to the bridge he said, “All right, I just sent up the latest weather. Let us clear everything off the chart table with the exception of the charts.” Schultz opened the B.V.S. program. As it happened, according to the N.T.S.B. report, because of a software glitch, the map that appeared was the very same map that had come in with the previous download, six hours earlier. The raw data on which it was based was at least 12 hours old.

It sounds like it wouldn't actually have helped if the captain had the per-hour update, because this undetailed software glitch meant the device wasn't showing the updated maps anyway.

The apparent moral of that part of the story is that the B.V.S. charts are past useless and into actively harmful territory, since they may not just be old but instead actively incorrect.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#104

Post by smitherfield »

ams6110 wrote: post #90
SlowBro wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also note that B.V.S did appear to have a 'Hourly Update' feature that did not appear to be subscribed to. From the article, "The Coast Guard report also noted that “El Faro crew did not take advantage of B.V.S.’s tropical update feature,” which would have provided hourly updates." So hourly updates apparently were available even if not subscribed to.

The crew did not take advantage, or the company did not buy the subscription?

The NTSB report says that it was the former, they were available but the captain had not configured the software settings to receive the hourly reports.

(Obviously, and hindsight is 20-20, hourly should've been the default).

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#105

Post by [deleted] »

smitherfield wrote: post #104
ams6110 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crew did not take advantage, or the company did not buy the subscription?

The NTSB report says that it was the former, they were available but the captain had not configured the software settings to receive the hourly reports. (Obviously, and hindsight is 20-20, hourly should've been the default).

[deleted]

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#107

Post by Declanomous »

ams6110 wrote: post #101
Declanomous wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should at least place a large warning stating that the data is not safe to use for navigational purposes.

I'm sort of surprised that data from a source like that is used. Have you ever seen the weather data that airline captains use? It looks like this: KORD 050251Z 26006KT 10SM SCT110 M02/M09 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP232 T10171089 53009 That's the current weather conditions for Chicago O'Hare. Looks like gibberish to you and me but airline captains know what it means and they know how old the observation is. Captain has ultimat…

Funnily enough I actually look at the KORD weather reports all the time and took the time to learn how to read pilot reports.

I think the difference is that captains are dealing with currents in the ocean and in the air. For the most part pilots are flying above things that will make the wind change in extremely short distances.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#108

Post by dreamcompiler »

thisrod wrote: post #86
dz0ny wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still boggles my mind how three different GPS position formats can be used. And then not used correctly by search crews, which then missed location by 23nm. https://i.imgur.com/nbwkCPY.png

Those formats are simply insane. It's well known that some people use decimal fractions of degrees, so why would anyone even consider using a decimal point to separate degrees and minutes?

Was this a big problem before computers? I doubt it. Back in the analog days two people would engage in a dialogue and ensure the units were agreed upon. Now people just blindly type data into a screen, or two computers blindly exchange packets without proper metadata.

It's ironic that we have 1000x better navigational accuracy than a 19th century tallship captain but we're much more careless with the data than he would have been.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#109

Post by dreamcompiler »

Stratoscope wrote: post #96
SeanBoocock wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great example is his treatment of Air France 447: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-...

Oh my, you weren't kidding: On the last day of May in 2009, as night enveloped the airport in Rio de Janeiro, the 216 passengers waiting to board a flight to Paris could not have suspected that they would never see daylight again, or that many would sit strapped to their seats for another two years before being found dead in the darkness, 13,000 feet below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean. But that is what happened.…

Yep. S&R is one of the best nonfiction technical books ever, even if you have no particular interest in becoming a pilot.

Re: The Worst U.S. Maritime Disaster in Decades

#110

Post by dreamcompiler »

doughj3 wrote: post #23

For anyone interested in stories like these, I highly recommend "Normal Accidents" by Charles Perrow - there's an entire chapter on maritime accidents.

"Meltdown" by Clearfield and Tilcsik is another excellent book about accidents. The authors are Perrow disciples.
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