Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction' • Hacker News Board

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#101

Post by intopieces » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #93

powercf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that, as time goes by, English use will become more common, and Icelandic less. The spread of the English language (e.g. the children in the article who '“know what the word is” for something they are being shown on the flashcard, but not in Icelandic.') is accompanied by the spread of US culture (TV, film, music). While US culture isn't neccessarily better or worse than any other, I get a lot of enjoym…

I find the debate over English superseding other languages to be somewhat comical. On the one hand, sure, there are parts of different cultures being lost. But they're being replaced by possibly the best example there is of a language evolving over time due to power dynamics. The accusation is often leveled against American cultural imperialism. But the language being imposed isn't a Native American language...it isn…

>But they're being replaced by possibly the best example there is of a language evolving over time due to power dynamics.

Why does the power dynamic of the language speakers (and therefore their linguistic dominance) provide a counterbalance to the loss of culture? That is, why do you specifically value one over the other, and in what sense is this comical?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#102

Post by hsivonen » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

radagast wrote: post #7

This has been discussed for as long as I remember myself (am 30 now). First it was the influence of english in TV (we only dub childrens shows and movies). I came unscattered from my youth and really doubt that my children won't be as good or better at icelandic than me. Everyone has learned icelandic, basic danish and advanced english at age 16. From the age 16-20 majority of kids add a fourth language which is eith…

What's the story behind everyone learning basic Danish still? Are there actual use cases for it?

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#103

Post by tmountain » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #53

tmountain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd also be easier if everyone painted all their houses the same color, ate the same foods all the time, and lived in a universally cookie cutter world, but that'd be terribly boring. Culture is embedded into language, and suggesting that we should standardize on a handful of languages for the sake of convenience places very low (or maybe no) value on cultural preservation. As someone who's been working very hard fo…

>It'd also be easier if everyone painted all their houses the same color, ate the same foods all the time, and lived in a universally cookie cutter world, but that'd be terribly boring. not a fair comparison. learning a second language takes much more resources (time and money) than having different paint colors or food choices.

Putting energy into cultural preservation of languages (learned at birth in the case of the article), is a different proposition than asking someone to learn them from scratch later in life. The question boils down to what is worth saving and investing in, and why we place value on those things.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#104

Post by ascorbic » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 8:59 PM UTC

powercf wrote: post #81

SEJeff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Equating the spread of English as a step in the Americanization of the world (to me) is a bit silly. I can reword your statement to use Spanish and Peru. It sounds just as weird: I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. In America, we speak all kinds of languages, of which English is t…

> You know that the English language doesn't originate in America, right? Of course, but it's not relevent. > I see the spread of the Spanish language a step in the Peruvianization of the world, which is a shame. Peru isn't driver of Spanish-speaking culture the way the US is the driver of English-speaking culture. TV shows, music, film, technology news and discussion websites, …. Most are US-made, and go hand in han…

They'll also probably listen to Ed Sheeran, One Direction, Adele, watch Top Gear, Doctor Who, Downton Abbey, Bake Off, read Harry Potter. The US might be dominant, but it's the English language that's the global hegemon.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#105

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

hsivonen wrote: post #102

radagast wrote: post #7

This has been discussed for as long as I remember myself (am 30 now). First it was the influence of english in TV (we only dub childrens shows and movies). I came unscattered from my youth and really doubt that my children won't be as good or better at icelandic than me. Everyone has learned icelandic, basic danish and advanced english at age 16. From the age 16-20 majority of kids add a fourth language which is eith…

What's the story behind everyone learning basic Danish still? Are there actual use cases for it?

[deleted]

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#106

Post by S4M » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

hsivonen wrote: post #102

radagast wrote: post #7

This has been discussed for as long as I remember myself (am 30 now). First it was the influence of english in TV (we only dub childrens shows and movies). I came unscattered from my youth and really doubt that my children won't be as good or better at icelandic than me. Everyone has learned icelandic, basic danish and advanced english at age 16. From the age 16-20 majority of kids add a fourth language which is eith…

What's the story behind everyone learning basic Danish still? Are there actual use cases for it?

Iceland and Denmark have closed ties.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#107

Post by icebraining » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #93

powercf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that, as time goes by, English use will become more common, and Icelandic less. The spread of the English language (e.g. the children in the article who '“know what the word is” for something they are being shown on the flashcard, but not in Icelandic.') is accompanied by the spread of US culture (TV, film, music). While US culture isn't neccessarily better or worse than any other, I get a lot of enjoym…

I find the debate over English superseding other languages to be somewhat comical. On the one hand, sure, there are parts of different cultures being lost. But they're being replaced by possibly the best example there is of a language evolving over time due to power dynamics. The accusation is often leveled against American cultural imperialism. But the language being imposed isn't a Native American language...it isn…

But the language being imposed isn't a Native American language..

If a Frenchman shoots someone with a bullet made in Germany, would you say the victim was killed by a German?

The origins of the language don't matter to the point being made, which is that having one's native language adopted by everyone else provides massive benefits in spreading one's culture and values, while weakening and even killing off others.

This notion that languages are something that need to be preserved is antithetical to the purpose of language and the history of the development of languages. We have many languages because, historically, we had many groups that didn't have regular contact with each other.

This is not the whole story, languages were and are created for the purpose of demarcating and separating a subculture from the majority. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cant_(language)

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#108

Post by _mhr_ » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #78

remir wrote: post #76

I wonder what will happen to languages and culture when we will eventually be able to transmit direct thoughts to another person using brain implants or other tech. Imagine being able to communicate without any possibility of misunderstanding. The idea you have in mind is the exact idea the other person receives.

I don’t think it works that way. My thoughts are in English. I’ve asked bilingual people about their dreams and thoughts. Most of them say it can be both languages usually depending on where they are. If you mean transfer a feeling then I’d agree it’s possible. Like happy, sad, angry etc.

I don't think it works that way, either. When you reach for a door, do you first think "I'm going to reach for that door," in English? Or do you just think it wordlessly? For me, personally, when I inspect how I'm thinking, I really do think wordlessly a lot of the time. It's only in communicating my thoughts to others that my ideas become verbalized, or if I'm in a verbalizing mood, I might be talking to myself. But when I've gone hours without talking to someone, I'm probably not going to verbalize much in my head.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#109

Post by jonathanyc » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

Not to be trite, but note that Iceland's total population (~300k) is less than half of San Francisco's (~800k).

> “It’s called ‘digital minoritisation’,” said Eiríkur Rögnvaldsson, a professor of Icelandic language and linguistics at the University of Iceland. “When a majority language in the real world becomes a minority language in the digital world.”

This makes the phrase "digital minoritisation" seem pretty silly. We should definitely try to protect the heritage of uncommonly spoken languages like Icelandic, Basque, etc. But it's not clear why the plight of Icelandic, a language with its "own country," is particularly deserving of this sort of dramatization.

Re: Icelandic language battles threat of 'digital extinction'

#110

Post by kodis » Fri, Mar 02, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #75

irrational wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is preventing Europe from creating media that reflect their culture and exporting it to the world? If Europe could create music, movies, etc. that are more popular than the offerings from the US then... problem solved?

Simply said, economics. This is a winner-takes-all problem, nothing short of banning US media and forcing creation of a local media industry will be able to do that.

I don't really see it as a winner-takes-all situation. Here in the US my wife and I both enjoy many of the BBC productions, the 'Brit-com' comedy shows, and have noticed that a significant percentage to the actors even in US produced shows are from the UK or Australia.

It seems that there's plenty of room for good programs no matter what their country of origin.