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Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

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Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#101

Post by psergeant »

skrap wrote: post #22

I get what the author is getting at. Not sure I agree. Many years ago, I read "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland", which analyzes interviews with the actual men performing the slaughter of innocents at the end of the war. The conclusion that book drew was different than this article, and makes more sense to me — that it's not "mean people 'go nazi'", but ordinary people who '…

I think the author and you are targeting slightly different things: she identifies who is amongst the vanguard who bring it into power, you are observing that once in a Nazi state, most people will go along with it

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#102

Post by jgtrosh »

watwut wrote: post #88
qohen wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See e.g. Emil Maurice, he was a Jew One of his great-grandfathers was Jewish; he was not.

Yeah, these are less puzzling when you realize that nazi defined Jewishness by blood and thus many assimilated people who considered themselves Germans and believed same things as other Germans got catch in net too.

The Mischling test checked for one grandparent of Jewish confession. Even Nazis would not consider him the same way they did their victims.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#103

Post by jstewartmobile »

If anyone has ever read Speer's memoirs, the striking thing is just how ordinary all of the Nazi big-baddies were.

He'll be recounting some story of Bormann or Goering, and you'll be thinking to yourself, "That's just like Joe in HR!" or "Matt does that all the time!"

Take the ordinary schmuck in middle-management, give him absolute power, then BAM--nazi.

https://archive.org/stream/Inside_the_Third_Reich_Albert_Spe...

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#104

Post by javajosh »

0xBA5ED wrote: post #73

I believe this ignores the component of social cohesion. In rapidly changing and uncertain times, the lure of steadfast resolve and order can be psychologically powerful to many types of people. Fascist ideologies of all types promise this. And if the atrocities of the state are out-of-sight out-of-mind for the majority of folks, sadly, many find them easy to ignore as long as _their_ world is "in order".

To add to this: it is incredibly difficult to risk yourself and your family to protect strangers, no matter what the numbers are. That's why the act of defying the Nazis in WW2 was particularly heroic: the alternative was to just go along, and be safe and comfortable. Heroism in warfare counts for less, since the alternative is often just a different kind of death.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#105

Post by usrusr »

watwut wrote: post #91
motohagiography wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dynamic is significant in the culture wars of today. As part of some work in architecture for some public sector projects, I read "The Nazi Census" which was a description of the technologies and techniques of the 1938 german census which was a basis for the NSDAPs brutal bureaucracy. ( https://www.amazon.com/Nazi-Census-Identification-Control-Po... ) One of the interesting parts was adding "unused," fields to t…

What do you mean by "the ones assumed when those techs and institutions were built"? Both Nazi and Communists institutions and techs were built for that exact purpose.

The origins of almost every "Nazi tech" predate their rise to power.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#106

Post by SuperHitler »

rospaya wrote: post #40

The Nazis in the article remind me of the political class in Croatia, where I live. Once socialist one party rule collapsed, the whole ruling class divided itself into political parties and participated in the whole political spectrum, like nothing happened. Some of them became ardent anti-communists, despite being active parts of the old regime. After ten years of center-right rule, some even switched sides and form…

"Some people are simply made for all regimes. They're the Nazis the author talks about."

I think most of people are simply made for regimes. It's giving them comfort. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_proof

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#107

Post by agumonkey »

skrap wrote: post #22

I get what the author is getting at. Not sure I agree. Many years ago, I read "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland", which analyzes interviews with the actual men performing the slaughter of innocents at the end of the war. The conclusion that book drew was different than this article, and makes more sense to me — that it's not "mean people 'go nazi'", but ordinary people who '…

Reminds me of culture shock between Europe and South America. When people came there, sacrifices seemed barbaric. To the aztec/inca ... these were probably a noble gesture.

People's emotions toward acts is highly dependant on the reference system they live in.

I'm sure it's exceptionally hard to escape this kind of nation wide social pressure. At least for a while. I've read people starting to feel sick and question their duty. But they still agreed at first.

Similarly, drone operators started happy, but became overly depressed after "working" for months.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#108

Post by lostlogin »

cmurf wrote: post #82
OtterCoder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascism, for the people who shape it as such, will be pushed forward by some of the kinds of people the article mentions. However, Germany was and is and always will be peopled by mostly reasonable, kind, stout folks, because most people everywhere are reasonable, kind, and stout. Even the cream of a country can be goaded and led and pushed into fascism, as the tide sweeps across a frightened or depressed people. The…

Compare how Germany was treated by the world after WWI, and after WWII. Big difference in treatment, and consequences for that treatment. Fortunately the lessons of WWI hadn't been forgotten when it came time to cleanup after WWII.

Even if a punitive approach had been taken, it would have been a very different post war period. Germany was utterly destroyed, beaten and occupied. In WW1 that wasn’t the case and while there had been massive loss of life, Germany was intact.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#109

Post by skrap »

BookmarkSaver wrote: post #67
gt_ wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like basic opportunism... fits well in line with OPs comment.

Yeah, but I don't think most ordinary people are just looking for excuses to murder people. Somewhere along the way, these "ordinary people" were convinced that innocent men, women, and children were enough of a threat to slaughter them. By the end of the war when they realized that they'd lost, they might look to absolve themselves, but that doesn't explain the mechanism causing that behavior in the beginning.

I'd really suggest you read the book I mentioned, even just the preview pages available via Amazon. Your intuition doesn't match what is depicted. Their actions were not a reaction to the threat posed by the Jews, nor did they justify their actions in that way.

Re: Who Goes Nazi? (1941)

#110

Post by fleetingmoments »

psyc wrote: post #30
wavefunction wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'winning' implies that there has to be someone 'losing' and I don't feel like that represents my view of my life though I do feel very satisfied. I am very glad that I was able to purchase a modest house that I can work on and modify. I'm happy with designing and implementing solutions to the technical problems my job entails. I'm happy that I have the opportunity to save so that I have a financial cushion should man…

> I don't think this situation requires anyone else to lose. I don't know enough macroeconomics, nor enough about the veracity of macroeconomics, to determine whether this is true. I'm not calling you out, or asking you to defend your thesis to strangers. I'm just wondering whether you're able to reason end-to-end about this in your own mind, to reach this conclusion. Also, whether or not your good fortune depends on…

Whether their lives are "sucking" is a matter of perspective. There are billions of people around the world who would be only too grateful for a life that "sucks" as much as theirs do. You'll find people from all walks of life who have convinced themselves that their life sucks and that, if only they got that raise, or if the economy grew at x % or if the guy who talks like them became president, it would suck less. As long as the majority of people keep looking to external factors to determine their happiness and satisfaction with life, your society will always be vulnerable to populism.
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